008 – Albert Oosterhoff, Professor Emeritus and Firm Counsel; A Voice of Reason
Unverified Transcript, Automatically Generated

You know. One of the things that always struck me was is, is a quotation from Heinrich, Hina, uh, high numbers of German poet and playwright, um, who lived in the 18th century. Um, he was Jewish and he wrote in one of the slaves and said, dogs, good brands, but rents men. Um, and, uh, Oh, men, what does that mean? What that translates as is when a bird books.

And, uh, also in Bernie people. And of course, that's exactly what happened in Nazi Germany. Uh, first that bridge all the, the books of, of, uh, uh, It goes, let's see authors that the Nazis didn't like including, but then we also ended up grading.

Good morning. How are you? Good. Nice to see you. And thank you for joining me. I got a, I got an interesting discussion plan. Thank you for being, yes. I've heard about your background is you're a pro. Professor emeritus at Western law school. And you're taught at many other universities along the way, specifically in the field of roads and trust mistakes.

Most notably, uh, your career was for the most part in academia, which means that you are very frequent publisher, including of several books, which there on trust trust was on wills and succession. Uh, you are. What I consider a voice of reason in the estates community of lawyers, you'll articles, which I endeavor to read our way to learn the depths of the law and keep up to date on current events, just to note.

So all the blogs at the well partners, all very relevant, good, good blogs, and a useful resource. Um, we'll try to touch upon the two main parts of your career. Um, the academic. Wills and estates, academic, if I may call it such a thing. Uh, and then the second part as counsel at, uh, at well partners, that sounds like a very incredible career you have, but before we get to the Korea aspect, I always like to start by asking about your background.

If you want to, even pre-university days, I'm curious to know. Uh, what prompted you to study law? How did even your come to study law? Ah, very good question. Um, I, I was born in 1940, a couple of months before, uh, Germany invaded. Um, and then I came to charter.

I had a undergraduate, sorry, uh, elementary school education and in the Netherlands. So I, uh, I know the production. Um, so then of course I have my high school and Canada and then, um, and, um, And I started the first year, of course, was one of those years when you have to take a certain number of, I stopped economics and I got a very good grade.

And so I decided to focus on economics. I think I had three economics courses, but then I realized that economics in the equity years, mostly. Focused on that

when it comes to that, we as well that's, uh, pushes us to law. So then, uh, Western law school was then in its second year of operation. And so one of my classmates from economics law school. And see what that was all about the application and that was accepted. So I had to do undergraduate work. Um, so the answer to your question, how did I decide to become a lawyer?

And how was that experience? You enjoyed the law school experience. And, um, uh, I mentioned before that your career was largely in academia, were you attracted to. The academic aspect of law from those law school days? Or how did that come about? Um, I was attracted to academia from those years. Yes. I had some very good teachers in law school.

Um, I like, just like to mention a couple, the first is, um, Dean Ivan, Rand. Uh, Randy was a retired justice of the Supreme court of Canada. And then, uh, was then regarded practically as a, sort of the best on the bench. Uh, perhaps that's a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but, uh, so we loved it. It was a great teacher.

Um, he taught me three courses actually, uh, in first year it was his feet. Uh, history of law and, uh, second, uh, and second year it was, uh, equity. And constitutional law. And of course he was an expert on constitutional law. So that was wonderful. The other one, the other teacher that I want to mention is Ralph skein, uh, who, uh, went on from Western to then, uh, went back to practice after that.

Then he taught, uh, for the rest of his career at UFG. Um, Ralph taught me both wills and estates. And that's where, uh, I got my love for those two topics. So, uh, but then yes. Uh, so I, I became interested in, uh, academic study, um, uh, when, when it was, I guess, towards the end of my second year, I approached Dean rant about it and he said, And gave me very good advice.

He said, well, uh, I, you know, that that's, that's a good thing to do, but I encourage you first to go to the practice of law and see what that's like, because he says, if you don't do that, you will always wonder what you mean. And it was actually the last. So I went the route of, uh, the bar admission course.

Uh articling by mission course, and then called to the bar, which was in 1966. And then I practice with a firm in London for two and a half years. Um, I also articled with them an excellent term. And, uh, but in the meantime, you know, I wanted to continue my, my academic studies. I finished up my VA actually part time while I was working for the firm.

Uh, and then, uh, then I went a UFT to do my masters. Um, and then I, uh, uh, you have to specialize to do your masters. Did you pick, what was that a States at that point? Um, I did take, uh, I didn't take wheels because I focused on that a lot. I did take a trust scores and a couple of other courses as well, not from skiing because of course he had taught me at last year, but he was there.

Okay. And you'll practice, uh, those few years of practice, what you're really trying to specialize at that point in the trusts, wills and trusts, or will you just trying to gain a bit of practical experience? I know, I can't say that I was, I was really trying to specialize at that point. You know, when you're a young lawyer, you've got to do most.

Anything that is presented to you, but I knew that I was not embarrassed. I was a sister. Um, so I did a lot of work in real estate transactions, uh, corporate law, corporate commercial, and, uh, and also some, uh, some wheels in the States. Well, and really enjoyed the latter. That's kind of what prompted you to return to what you always wanted to do, which was teaching.

And you had such a, an outstanding Korea as a professor, as an academic, you were associate Dean. You were a. A Dean at some point, and you were involved in all sorts of, uh, universities and teaching arrangements. And, um, can you talk a bit about your experience there and looking back on it? Uh, yes. Um, I started teaching at university of Windsor.

I taught there for three years and then I'm over to back to Western. Yeah. And that's where I spent the rest of my academic career. Um, you know, when you first start teaching it's, uh, well, it's not an easy thing to start to do, right. It's something entirely new. Um, you've, you've had mentors. Uh, and law school, of course, and that helped a lot.

Um, but it took me a while to get into writing and publishing. So the first two, three, four years are really, you're really focusing on, uh, on how to prepare properly for your lectures, how to teach effectively and get the, get the material across to your students. Uh, but then I started to write. And to, uh, also do some, uh, some work for other bodies, especially the law reform commission of Ontario.

Uh, and that also of course involved a lot of research and writing. So all of that was, was right down my path. Um, and then, uh, you know, towards the mid seventies, I started to articles and books and, uh, and then alternately, I, I wrote my wills and trusts sex, which were first foundation in 1980. Uh, trust is now edition.

And, uh, we'll nine condition will be published next spring. Unbelievable. I want to get a signed copy at some point. It's really unbelievable. The amount that you publish, and it sounds like you had to really work on that at the early part of your career. The first two years, um, you know, I'm in the early part of my career, how did you develop such a.

Uh, an outputs, if you can call it that, you know, the first part of anyone's career, especially as a lawyer, is all about input, receiving information, trying to learn as much as you can. And I think that tipping point, what turns you into a, an expert or a better lawyer, a more experienced lawyer, so to speak is when you start with the outputs.

And that's one of the things I'm trying to do over here. Is, uh, outputs of information, but, um, I'm a drop in the ocean compared to your outputs. Um, you're not even until today you publish articles. What is it? A once every two weeks or whatever it is. And each one I look at is a well thought out and researched and Antonia.

And how did that skill develop and how you go about it today? Uh, producing so much. Well, um, I think to begin with, I should, I should say that I've always loved learning. Um, my family, uh, was a reading family, all of us read, and it was, it was for enjoyment, of course, but also for learning. And that continued when in, in law school.

Uh, and then in university, sorry, you said law school. I'm at high school. Good timing in high school. I loved the English classes in particular and history in there most days, you know, you have to memorize readings of, of, uh, Shakespeare and, uh, various, uh, poetry and so on. And I can still reset them. No, but I can.

And so it's the, it's the, it's almost a needs to learn Abby, um, that, that I had. And then when you start to teach. That, that needs to learn evolves also in and need to pass that on to, to, uh, your students, to a younger generation, if you will. Um, and so that's why, that's why you research. That's also why he writes so that others can benefit from, from your work, from your studies.

Yeah. Absolutely. And they are no question about it. I feel that's part of the duty as you gain more knowledge and experiences to share it. That's definitely part of that. Have you ever had some sort of a writer's block? They call it Oh, yes, yes, yes. Uh it's uh, it's not a go uncommon. I think for most people, in my case, you know, I may have.

I finished some major projects and I know I've got something else that's coming up and I've got to work on it. Uh, but it just, it's not coming together. Um, so I leave it for a week or two. And then, um, I may still not have the thoughts in place to start working on, but I'll just start to rise. And, uh, it may not make all that much sense to begin with, but I'll just try to wait.

And, uh, and then, um, I'll print it up. And then the next day I'll look at it and, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll probably discard most of it and I can see some of it and then things start to start to gel for me. And I can work away on, you know, doing a good job with it.

No, I don't hear you. I was going to say even then, uh, it requires a lot of editing afterwards. Um, you know, I can't just write a piece of work, like an article and submitted for publication. It requires rewriting and rewriting again. And, uh, and then finally, you know, when I'm satisfied with it, that it gets submitted for publication, right?

Yeah. It's a, it's a piece of art, a sculpture you have to keep, uh, keep them ending. And you've also been, um, you know, I call it a illegal innovator. You shed lights on future events, you know how things should be. Um, this question could go in many different ways, but I'll start by asking retroactive, have you seen major developments in their state's worlds throughout your career?

That you'd like to comment on? I spoke to Don Carr. He was my first guest and he said, Uh, he was involved in the multiple walls, which is a huge, a huge thing. Um, you know, if, if they haven't been changed as in the past, the followup question is, do you think there should be any changes going forward? And then I'll, I'll just comment.

One thing about the, the electronic walls and all the software that's available. Do you have a take on that? I was going to talk about electronic wheels, uh, you know, in the estates area, there haven't been that many. It changes at cars, right? Of course, about the multiple wheels. And that was because of, uh, of the, a huge increase in the state administration tax.

Uh, so then people decided to, to have a priority we'll add a secondary will allow, which is probated the others not to avoid having to pay so much tax. Uh, but, but there are many of those changes in wheels. We had the. Succession law reform act passed in, uh, 19, 1977. Uh, and, and that introduced some, some major changes, including, for example, holograph, wills.

Um, but they were not, they were not sort of earth shattering. Changes, they were just developments from, from the past. Um, but things are moving much more quickly now. And, and you know, when, when we think about it, so much of our work is done electronically now. I mean, I sit at my computer most days and, and type whatever I have to say on my computer.

Right. Then I pass that along electronically to a publisher. Or to my law firm as the case Navy, uh, and, and all of this is sort of electronic as well. We haven't done that with wills. Uh, but now because of COVID-19. Things have started to change, particularly because all of a sudden, Hey, you know, people can no longer execute their wheels because we have to maintain social distancing.

So we can't go to the people. So we have CAC, we can't have them at our offices either because of those restrictions. So what can we do instead? And so, uh, Ontario was one of the first, uh, but all of the other provinces followed as well, uh, by passing I'm in a serial order, under emergency legislation that emits a virtual execution of wills and powers of attorney.

Those were temporary solutions that are good exclusions that needed to be made. But of course they don't work for everybody, especially for seniors who really need and want to make Wells. And it doesn't necessarily work for them because they don't have access to electronic devices. And they're, they're not, they're not capable off, but not off of.

Of accessing that. So other things need to need to happen as well. So, uh, electronic wheels and, uh, that's been discussed for quite a number of years. Uh, there are now a couple of jurisdiction jurisdictions in the U S. Florida and Nevada that have, uh, electronic wheels. There's also uniform wheels after the end of the United States and, uh, the, uh, uniform law conference of Canada.

Has also gotten working group, which is well advanced on proposing similar legislation. And then most recently in British Columbia, they passed legislation to be part of their wills statute, uh, on electronic wills as well. So we're moving ahead. And, uh, there's interest also, for example, here in Monterio about electronic.

Well, it's, I don't know if it's going to happen, so, but the interest is there. Well, can you just clarify what that means? Exactly. Electronic will means extort electronically and there's no hard copy. Uh, what does that mean regarding signatures? What, what is it? What's the definition of an electronic wallet?

Yeah, but you've covered the essentials. It is stored electronically in a safe way. Uh, and, uh, there was only one copy. Of course, that is stored. Then if amendments have to be made, those that can be done. And then the original is changed, of course, but there is a. There is a, a track that's going to be followed.

So you have the regional, and then you have the events. Uh, the signatures are still required, but they're electronic sutures. So like their lack of the signatures that are being done now, uh, electronically, virtually, right. Uh, but they're still necessary. Um, so that hasn't changed. Um, and do you think there's going to need to be a certain digital custodian or the clients can?

Yes. Uh it's uh, those are mostly commercial organizations. Now that may change. I don't know. But, uh, but yes, the, the need for it secure storage. Yeah. Of all these deals obviously is very important. There is another point to notice too, and that you actually mentioned it. Uh, the, uh, the wheel is, is entirely, uh, uh, electronic, but it is capable of being printed.

And that's still necessary. Of course, in the, in the probate environment that we're working with today, the court wants to see a printed copy, but that's changing too because today, and in the, uh, in the, uh, Will's practice, you know, you can submit, uh, for example, a probate application electronically. So all of these things are changing.

And that's mostly because of the COVID 19 restrictions. So there are, there are, uh, EFS that caused these changes, just like the multiple wheels that was caused by the huge increase in an estate administration tax. Now COVID-19 is causing these changes and they're good changes. You know, we, we, we need to, we need to, uh, Oh times.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, the, the signing digitally, I I'm the solicitor as well. I've done a few of those, uh, remote signings by counterparts and putting it all together. But, uh, I must just note that I think today is October 21st. That should be expiring the emergency order tomorrow. And I've heard nothing about whether it's extended or not.

So from tomorrow onwards, I think people are in the dark a little bit over there. Yeah. Have you heard anything? No, I haven't. Uh, I do know that it's a matter that, uh, the Ontario attorney general that has under consideration right now, the couple of, um, uh, virtual chats with members of the bar, um, where he sought advice on various things.

Uh, and that was one of them, but I haven't heard what's happening with the virtual signing. And other thing that's the other consideration is introducing, uh, the, uh, to, uh, to rectify it. I will, when it's not quite up to snuff, you know, uh, the execution was there's some problems with it. Execution, um, and virtually every other province has an active, such as station.

So, so we're out in left field and, uh, and you know, the feeling is that we need to lead that kind of legislation as well, a change, uh, that's important. And that I think is certainly coming in Ontario. Uh, huh. Very interesting. Uh, changing Tom's if you will, there's a lot of developments on the way. Um, I don't know if it's fair to ask you about other jurisdictions, uh, but maybe, uh, as part of your research here, you know, what's going on in other places.

Uh, I'm a lawyer in Israel. I just spoke to one of my States colleagues there recently. And it's interesting how different countries have dealt with the COVID, um, over there. Um, I don't know if it's dealt with the best way, because there has not been a virtual allowance of a virtual signing. So, um, people need a will now or just out in the dock and what the government's done.

That's interesting is promoted. Um, individuals to do it themselves, which means they're provided a guideline of how to make a holographic. Well, how to, uh, find two witnesses if you're going to type it up yourself. Um, and lawyers are left, uh, either out of the picture or just providing a will and giving instructions to the clients, how to get assigned themselves.

So, um, I am impressed with the way the Ontario government's dealt with that, uh, allowing these things emergency orders. Um, I'm hoping this will accelerate things for the future and allow us to continue the whole digital world. But do you have comments on other jurisdictions and how they've dealt with this?

Are you aware of such how, how people have dealt with COVID in general? I had

I, you know, I read the information about other common law jurisdictions, similar to what we've done in Karen. Yeah. I'm concerned about themselves too, to prepare a holograph real. Yes, of course they can do that. No holograph wheels often cause all kinds of problems. Uh, proper execution, right? Yeah. Um, another question about changes is, um, about the law itself substantively.

So you mentioned the succession Laurel format is from. Uh, 1977. And, uh, I know the UK, I think in 2014, updated the, uh, intestate laws to kind of more accurately reflect society. So they, uh, excluded, uh, parents and siblings and include a common more spouse, for example, uh, they also have this preferential share, which they.

Uh, increased then indexed to inflation. So I've, I've heard about the succession motor format. That's the law for those that don't know that applies to, uh, our wills and estates. Do you ever comment that that should be updated in any way? I, I think that it should be updated very much and we, and I've said so to be fair to our in general, um, you know, it's, it's a, it's more than a quarter century old.

What is it? 45 years old. And there've been a lot of changes since it was enacted. And some you've mentioned, uh, um, Carlos spouses are not, not included. Of course you can make a wheel in which you, you make in which you benefit your spouse when you die. And Jessie, the Commonwealth spouse is not included.

Uh, in all of the rest in provinces, uh, I believe, um, to the intestacy laws include common law. Um, it's um, the drafting can be difficult because. Uh, what do you do? For example, if you have common loss stops that you also have a, um, a former, uh, you know, you still have, uh, an actual spousal, you don't live with that person.

Uh, and then when you go out, you've got the preferential share who gets it. Right. So careful drafting is required in those circumstances, but yes, those are reasons to suggest that we need to need you to revise the legislation. Okay. Um, there's other by the, by me being a foreign lawyer, as well as material lawyer, I have insight into how, uh, other jurisdictions practice and one of the major ways they practice in Israel for example, is for the drafting lawyer to insert themselves as the trustee of the wall.

They see most familiar with the financial circumstances of the person and they were involved in drafting the wall. So they feel like they could administer the vote. Yeah. Frowned upon question is, do you have any, uh, practice? I know you're, you're not a practical lawyer, but even from an academic point of view, any practical.

A nuance, those challenges or what issues you want to discuss. Um, you know, when, when you, as a solicitor, you suggest to a client, um, why don't you apply me as executor? This will cause, you know, I know all about you and your affairs. Uh you're. You're. You're in a conflict of interest, right? That's, that's improper.

Um, on the other hand, if the client says, I want you as my executor, that's been a different story. Um, and then as a, as a solicitor, you have to point out what look, you know, uh, this sort of thing is, is not really, uh, it's really frowned upon in Ontario. It can't be done, but. But you have to be aware of that.

That's your obligation to a point to point out to your client. Right. And really in a conflict of interest. Um, so in general, I would say don't do it. It's not a good idea because of the conflict of interest. Yeah, no, often it's not often, it's not, you're dealing with the, with a single lawyer in a small community and you know, that lawyer looks after your, after all the clients.

Right. So, um, talk a bit about your current role as well, partners. I mean, well, partners, really a real leading. In Toronto. I love some of the people that work there and just discuss your role of council. What exactly do you do? Yeah. Good question. Let me see. After Ryan retired Western, um, I moved to Toronto and then taught at UFT as an adjunct.

And those, those good, but, uh, uh, you know, when you, as an academic, your venture, isn't all that. Great. So a little more income doesn't, doesn't track the, uh, teaching as an adjunct. Doesn't earn you that much money. So I have to be talking to Kim, uh, Wally at some point, uh, lunch and learn kind of thing. I think it was.

Uh, and I, you know, I said, I really think that I'd like to get back into practice a bit. And she said, well, uh, uh, and so I've never looked back since, and that's been a most, uh, put you in some sense that I ended up with with well partners, uh, but also, uh, a very welcome you then, because. Uh, Kim has been very good to me.

She's welcomed me with open arms into the firm. Uh, you know, it can be for her. I think, I think she, and, and the younger members of the firm rely on me or for legal advice. And, and I enjoy doing that too. Uh, but, um, it's, it's opened all kinds of possibilities for me for, for one blogs. You mentioned, I blog regularly, uh, on the, on the web, uh, on the, uh, well logs site, um, on new cases, patients from all over the world, including of course the privy council and houses

and. I wouldn't necessarily have had that opportunity without being counseled to, uh, to well partners, by the way, the council, uh, when you're counseled to a Trinity can mean any number of things. In my case, it means, um, that, uh, I do opinions for the firm on, uh, cases that they're working on, where they need some further input on the law.

Uh, I also do a BDS for other lawyers by the way, who will contact me through, uh, art news and I'll do a page for them as well. Uh, but that's sounds through well, um, um, and then, uh, Um, Kim has me involved in doing, um, CPD programs on a regular basis and also getting lectures on a regular basis. Uh, did some lectures at Western for example, um, last year, um, because well, partners put on, on, uh, the state litigation course there.

It's not as fun. Um, and then just quite recently, as you know, I did a lecture at Austin Hall law school that was not through, well, they just approached me. So yeah, that's sort of that's, those are the sorts of things that I do at Mel Carnation. It's fun, actually working with, uh, especially with the younger members of the firm.

Um, it's embarrassing in some ways, because they kind of put me on a pedestal, then I don't feel comfortable, but, you know, they asked me, they asked for my views and I'm always happy to help them out. Yeah. Great, great gods, Daniel and Matt specifically. I know personally really good lawyers, good lawyers and good people.

Um, yeah. So explain more maybe about these legal opinions, know the main part of what you do there. So, um, What's hopper cases require a legal opinion. Maybe you can give them an example with some facts, if you don't mind. And then what, what, uh, what kind of, uh, what does a legal opinion due to a case ever have your legal opinions swayed the scales of justice one way or another?

Give us a couple of examples. Um, the opinions can, uh, can be needed in any number of cases, cases that involve just a small amount of money or cases that involve millions. Um, what they are about typically is, uh, uh, what the law on a particular point is because what the judge at first instance said, doesn't sound right, right.

It seems to be off. And so, um, one of the bodies of course, wants to appeal and then splits, what are you going to be alone? And so then, uh, they asked me, well, what do you think about this, this, uh, judgment, the first instance, is it, is it right? Or is it wrong and how is it wrong and how should we, what issues should we be focusing on during the appeal?

And, and, uh, I've worked over the years on, on quite a number of really interesting things, um, that you know, where you get, you really get your hands on something that, that is, uh, is very current, but also very important to clients and. And you can give it your input. Now, when you do this, excuse me. Um, when I do this, uh, I don't necessarily know what impact that has, but what my work has on, um, on the outcome.

Um, because the judge, uh, the appeal is not going to say, Hey, you know, those job did a great job in this appeal, uh, because, because the judge won't know about it. Yes, it's the Harris Gerry should present the case on appeal, who, who will use my, uh, my opinion. Um, uh, and, uh, and I like to think that it, that it works and it tends to work indeed in a number of cases, uh, with, with, with good results.

Uh, but, but I don't get the credit for it in the case itself. Oh, you're you're, you're a, you're a doctor. You're the equivalent of a medical opinion in a personal injury case.

No, Abby, my opinion cannot be produced in court, right? Um, why, why is that? Well, because, uh, I'm regarded as an expert, right. But, um, I don't mess the expert cannot give testimony in a domestic case. So for example, uh, if someone is carrying on a case in Ontario and wants some expert evidence on wills or trusts, Um, and wants me to testify in court.

I have to tell the counselor, I can't do that because, uh, uh, because the law of evidence says that's impossible because we have this, we maintain this fiction that the judge knows all the law. Right. And you, and I know that that's not the case, but that part of that too, is that they engage counsel to tell the judge what the law is, but they don't, they don't want an expert for that purpose.

I can testify about Ontario law in the Quebec court that have done that. Uh, but not in a managerial course. So I, my opinions in other words are only for the benefit of, uh,

Oh, I didn't know that. That's interesting. And maybe that's because I'm not the expert just yet, at least. Um, so how would one get an Ontario expertise? You'd have to bring someone for example, from Quebec to testify on Ontario courts about Ontario law. Is that what you're saying? No. No. Uh, the issue in the Ontario case involves Quebec law.

Then you can get. Equip back lawyer to testify about correct. Nobody. Nobody can testify on Ontario law in Ontario. Got it. Got it. Okay. Interesting. So you have a real niche role. Yes. Yes. Sometimes I do get recognized. I, I, um, I acted, uh, I was asked to, to, uh, be involved in, uh, preparing an appeal in an murder case, uh, that was in 2000 and, uh, Oh 2006, something like that.

Uh, and that was, uh, that was about a trust issue. Um, and I worked with council there and, uh, in Edmonton, uh, and, uh, he very graciously said in the fact of that he was prepared with the assistance of a roaster hop. Wow, that doesn't happen very often. Well, I've seen your long list of recognitions elsewhere, so I'll be definitely covered in that sense.

Um, you have been a, such a mentor to the younger lawyers even speak about the ones at the firm, but throughout your whole career as a teacher. Um, do you have any advice to the younger generation of lawyers, law, students, et cetera?

Um, yes, one of them is, and I used to tell my students this already when I was teaching still, um, one of the muse, no, they used to say the law is a jealous mistress, which is probably a bit, um, you know, Gropper to say now, I don't know, but at any rate, uh, It, it does mean that it cannot keep by. Virtually all of your time and, and all of your thoughts, but what I would say to them is, you know, you have other responsibilities, uh, and those are interested since principally your spouse and your family spend time with them.

Make time for that. Right? Well, isn't everything. Well, it's very important. It's it's your career, but it's not everything, uh, find a good balance in your life. In other words. Um, and then occasionally had emails from students that I taught years ago reminding me that I said that to them at one point. I appreciate it.

Definitely. Great advice. Keep your priorities in check. Um, the other advice to young lawyers is, uh,

how should I put it?

No, it's hard to put this into words. Perhaps the word probity comes to mind. You know, uh, be the, uh, inquisitive, interesting, not inquisitive, but, but rather have integrity, be up rights, uh, uh, in your character. Be conscientious, be honest, sincere. In other words, uh, Be a person that somebody can count. Uh, somebody that people know that your word is your bond.

Right? Um, that is so important because if, if people know that they can't count on you, if your, if your word is worth a thing, then your reputation is gone. That's absolutely right. I could not agree more. And that reputation is what gets you through life. Beautiful. Anything else to add?

Yeah, it's what, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of a religious concept, right? To love your neighbor as yourself. What it means is you've got to be there for the other person you've got to. Yes, sir. Uh, not, not tell them what to do. You've got to listen advice if you wish, but be there for them. And, and that the know that they can count on you.

Yeah, really beautiful. I think that's a lesson in life more than anything else is, you know, the be that good person you smoke off. All those lovely adjectives. That's what locks about in addition to being a lawyer that's life itself. And when we, when we, when we talk about, uh, that sort of thing, I think back when after started practice in the mid 1960s, that was in London entry note, then, um, the practice was much more, uh, uh, verbal.

Rather than rich. So if a person said, this is what I'll do, you could count on that person. They were a couple of friends that, you know, you insisted on having things in writing, but today it is quite different. Isn't it? Everything is done in writing. And I think we've lost a lot because of that interesting perspective.

Uh, hopefully we can get, get some of it back. My timeline, integrity. And that's, it'll come back a little bit. Uh, I have two more quick questions for you is on my one is, uh, I just asked you to give advice to a younger people, younger lawyers in general. Can you give advice? To the public about the importance of wills and estate planning, someone who's dedicated their whole career to wills, trusts and estates.

Can you talk about the importance of that? Yes. It saddens me that so many people who don't make where there are various regions where that I know for some, uh, It raised the, or the, or the idea of death closer, right. And stairs.

What? Of course it's important because yes, when you're, you're a single person. It's not going to matter so much. Of course, if you have a fair bit of money and you really would like that to go to charity or to members of your family and so on, you want to, to say, who gets what, when you need it. Uh, but certainly once you are married or have a partner and you start on it, then you do need it.

Or your state is going to be just shooting and you don't want to leave it to, to, uh, to ingest when we have rules that say, when you say goes, but they probably won't agree with what your wishes would be. So you need, you know, answering the, of course, when you get older Sera

watch and learn.

That's exactly where you should go. And also then you should see professionals,

uh, to, um, to ensure that the tax. As much as possible within the law.

Definitely as a legal profession, we do, we do inform people that wills are important. We even had a wheel's mom where the Ontario bar association has a wills month. Right next month. But it doesn't seem to help enough getting at the, uh, the population with it. Right? So this is my penultimate question.

What, what can we do to change that? It's such an important thing. Yet? Statistics show something like 50% of Canadians do have a world to have a will either way. Why, why is that number so low? It's such an important document to have. It's not that expensive. Uh, yeah. Complaints about people spending more money on their, uh, suit blazer than their will.

And, uh, it's just, uh, that's not having your priorities in order. So is there anything you think we could and should do to educate the public and get that percentage higher? Uh, one thing occurs to me. Uh, we talked about, uh, everything being electronic now, right? Right. Why not? Why not put the message out there in electronic form, much more than we do now.

And also we can, we can do it on, um, on radio messages. For example, I usually listen to classical at them and I hear all kinds of.

Why can't we put a slot on their boats, why it's important? It's a great idea. I'm going to explore it. Last question I have for you, and you've been great and informative, and thank you. But, uh, as a last question I know from reading your articles, you are a wordsmith. To the degree. So, uh, the question is if you had one big billboard in times square that a, the biggest one there, and you could put anything you want on there, or perhaps someone gave you a free page in the ORs Ontario reports.

What, what do you want to put out there for everybody to see? Could be a quotes, a favorite saying, um, any sort of adage that you're, that comes to mind.

I hadn't given that any thought, uh, there are so many, so many sayings that, uh, that would work. Uh, I'll give you a few, if you'd like,

No, I'm going to let you give me a few. Sorry. You see if, if, uh, if you can narrow it down and if you'd like, we can skip it altogether.

Then the other question, which I try to elicit from you is a book recommendations. I know you're an author yourself. So besides your own books, which are most certainly recommended to you, you know, you mentioned you're an avid reader. Do you have any titles that pop out that have perhaps influenced your life, your thinking.

In the law, I didn't mean for example, you know, like the, the biographies written by Eric Jackson.

But

you don't know how teacher, he was a German Lutheran theologian, and he was implicated in the, uh, in the plot to kill Hitler. And so he was arrested and, uh, ultimately he paid the ultimate price when they, uh, executed again. And, um, plus a burger. A couple of days before the end of the war. So you're going to have to share that title.

I'm going to make a list of your titles to share. That's a great one that sounds like right up my alley, as a, as a reading preference, I'm all into that as well. His name isn't that tax T a X E X.

And the title is balm that's B O N. H O E F E R the subtitle as well, but I won't bother with that. The other one that he wrote, uh, very much was amazing grace. And that was a book about William Wilberforce, who was, as you probably know, instrumental in, uh, in, uh, seeking trivialization of slavery. So, so those certainly goes into biographies.

I read mostly novels, uh, Oh, some authors that I really love and always go back to are Anthony Burgess, uh, Anthony Powell. Uh, who wrote that 12 volume a dance to the music of time? It's, it's, it's a serious, it's a novel about,

um, ethics, you know, that sort of thing talking of course.

So, you know, as any number of others, A good legal author by the way, is, I don't know if you've heard of her. She's Sarah Caldwell and CA G w E L L. She was English and she wrote war before legal mysteries, which focused on or which she featured. A number of the young embarrassed practicing, maybe Zen reading, good stuff.

You know? Well, I want to read stuff. That's well, classical requisition.

Uh, you know, that will follow trilogy.

That's the, it's not, let me see. Oh, some recent books that I read again, rate centers. Yeah,

well, I haven't read these. I'm still at the nonfiction phase of my life. And I look forward to getting to that a fiction phase when I can turn off all the legal stuff, but I'm going to need a list of those and I'll, I'll include them in the notes. It's energy. One other one I wanted to entry, uh, was, uh, A book by Ariel law, home law, H O N called Kourtney E then, um, this person was an ex-pat in Australia who moved to France early on.

I mean, she still is like teenager and, um, she became involved with the resistance June 2nd world war, and was very instrumental in guiding people out of France, Jews and others. And it actually came back, uh, and, um, and had it a resistance in the Oban that was instrumental in, um, in, um, making sure that the Germans still hold up there, uh, represented from interfering with the allied events.

So it's a great, you know, that's a novel about an actual person, right? So is fiction, but it is also an actual person. I'm going to take a look at all of them. I'm holding up a book list. Gonna go through it then, but I love these recommendations and I thank you very well. Thank you for being here. Uh, as, as our guests speak to a lawyer podcast, really appreciate your time, your insight, your wisdom, your experience.

And, uh, like I said, even beyond this conversation, I thank you for your, uh, sharing of that wisdom, your publications, et cetera. We all get so much out of it. Is there any final words before we let you go?

You know, one of the things that always struck me was is, is a quotation from Heinrich, Hina. Uh, Hyman was a German poet and playwright, um, who lived in the 18th century. Um, he was Jewish and he wrote in one of these plays, he said, dogs, the brands, but grants men. Um, and, uh, Oh men, what does that mean? What that translates as is when a bird books and, uh, also in Burnie people.

And of course that's exactly what happened in Nazi, Germany, uh, verse that group, all the, the books of, of, uh, equal that's the authors that the Nazis didn't like, including Highness ropes. Uh, but then we also ended up hurting people. That's right. I've heard that quote before, and I didn't know where it was attributed to who it was attributed to.

So thank you for sharing. And, uh, it's a deep insight. It's something that we keep having to remember. Right. And to not forget. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you very much, Albert. Again, really appreciate it. We'll continue this conversation. Thank you. Okay. Be in touch with you soon. Thank you so much. Bye-bye bye-bye.