Marc Isaacs – Canada’s leading Admiralty, Maritime, Transportation and Insurance lawyer
And this is also a question that I often ask when I'm interviewing for an articling student or a young associate as to why did you go to law school? Or why, why do you want to be a lawyer? And the answer in my view has to in some shape or form B, because I want to help people. Or I want to do some good in the world, um, because that's really what I think this profession is about.

And remember, it's a profession before it's a business. And, um, if you, the answer is, uh, because I had nothing else to do or I thought it might be a good idea or make a lot of money. Uh, that's not a very good answer. Um, I think the answer needs to be, I got into this profession because I can contribute to my society in some way I can help make the world a little bit of a better place.

Uh, I can help people in some way, and I think that's what being a lawyer is really all about. And welcome back to speak to a lawyer. My name is Abby Charney, and today I'm delighted to speak to my guest, Mark Isaacs. Welcome Mark. You are a real best luck. Oh, yeah. In the field of maritime law, you're ranked in a whole number of publications locally, nationally, even internationally.

In 2017, you were appointed the president of the Canadian maritime law association. You're a professor of maritime law at the university of Toronto. It sounds like you have a very busy, successful and specialized career. Tell us a bit about your background and how it all started for you. Will I be thank you for having me here today.

It's a pleasure to come in and speak with you. Mmm. My, uh, background is, is that I went to law school like everybody else did. And when I went to law school, I just wanted to be a traveler. Um, And so I, when I graduated, I ended up articling with a smaller firm that did litigation work, and I got my wish. I was thrown into the thrust of it early on.

It was a great experience. Um, so I articled there. Uh, I didn't became an associate lawyer there and, you know, nine months of my call to the bar, I was maybe even less than that, I was doing a solo jury trial. And those are experiences that are unheard of today. And it was a great first five or six years where I was in motions court, frequently, uh, mediations, discoveries, trials, uh, just a great litigation experience.

I, um, began to get a little bit, uh, I don't know, board is the right word, but I always thought there was something more that I could do. I had this passion for an intellectual passion for maritime law. So one day, uh, in, I guess it was 2001, I, um, quit my job and moved to new Orleans and did a graduate degree in maritime law.

Uh, following that I came here back to Toronto was briefly at my old firm. And then I ended up joining, uh, uh, George . Who's now chief justice of Ontario, who at the time had a, uh, maritime law practice. Uh, I was a freshly minted, but a mid level, uh, lawyer maritime lawyer joined him. And, uh, shortly thereafter we became partners.

George got appointed to the bench and, uh, took over the practice in 2000. I think it was 2007. And. The rest is history. Wow. So we're going to have to take a few steps back. I studied my LLM in public international law, and I thought it was sexy because there's all these different countries involved. And, um, you know, thinking about it, thinking about it from a practical point of view day, day, it seems like maritime noise.

The closest thing to that. Dealing with kind of sovereign immunity and all that type of thing. So, um, the question is, um, how, how are other camps she is related to your, to your work? How did that happen? Just from a regular tort case to get in kind of international parties involved. And if you want to take a step back, I noticed that you had a say in defining the scope of.

Add rarely add murder the law in Canada. So if you can define that what's maritime law is first of all, before you go into the international aspects of it. Sure. There's a, there's a lot there. So Canadian maritime law or Admiralty law, uh, is basically the field of law that deals with the shipping industry.

So it's very industry specific. Uh, it doesn't so much deal with the purchase and sale of goods. It picks up from after the sale contract has been completed. So now you have a, uh, a shipment of, you know, widgets to use the, the law school and the business term, a business term, shipping, a widgets that are manufactured in China or somewhere in Europe that have to get to Canada or vice versa.

So it has to do with the industry that does with that. So it has to do with cargo. It has to do with passengers on ships. It has to do with the commercial aspects of shipping. So that's sort of what it is. And by its very nature. It is international because of ships move across the oceans from nation to nation.

Uh, you mentioned public international law. Before I went into law school, I had sort of thought that maybe I would go into the public service. I w I was an undergraduate of public policy in administration. We thought maybe a diplomatic career would be, would be my thing in life. Um, but I ended up going to law school.

And actually I think maritime law more closely relates to private international law, which is the, uh, con competition amongst legal systems that are various nations, as opposed to public international law, which is more about governments and sovereign immunity, as you say, right? Although we frequently deal with, with treaties and international agreements and conventions.

And it's funny because I think in law school, private international law was my worst subject in terms of marks. And now, uh, it's something that I deal with on a regular basis. So found a tough comparative law and finding out which law applies to settle cases. So that that's really the main distinguishing factor with maritime law is that it deals with the shipping industry.

Yes. So, uh, uh, as I, as I say, it deals with things that float and sometimes don't, um, so it could be anything from a commercial dispute from, you know, uh, people that supply ships or, uh, people who operate ships, not getting, uh, not getting paid for whatever reason to, uh, Tortious incidents. So it could be injuries where a ship strikes a dock.

Uh, it could be somebody being injured on a ship. Uh, it could be cargo damage, which is sort of the bread and butter work of, of, of a maritime practice. Cause that's what ships are all about carrying cargo, um, to, uh, you know, regulatory work and stuff that goes on with the operation of ships and regulating the business affairs.

So my practice is very varied in that sense, in that every day is a different day for me. It all relates somehow to the shipping industry, but within that, yeah, it's all sorts of ELLs or supposed to all sorts of things. And I like tell people, maritime lawyer to lawyer. They think of it as, wow. That's a very niche, narrow, tiny area of practice.

Um, but I describe it almost like a key hole and yes, it's a key hole, but once you open the door, you're, it's an, a wide variety of things. So I could be doing okay. Port work. I could be doing contract drafting. I could be doing criminal defense, um, all sorts of things, just somehow connected to the shipping industry.

Um, fascinating area through that keyhole how broad it is and how many things are at all. Uh, you touched upon the private international law aspect. Can you kind of give us a. A framework of when walking or applies, are there any general rules where the defendant is with a damage occurred? Whatever it is.

Um, you know, someone comes to you, have you had to size, sorry, this is not Ontario jurisdiction. Or how, how does that kind of work with, with an issue? Sure. Uh, I've had many cases where people have come to me and I've said, I'm sorry, I can't help you. Um, there is still gonna have to be some sort of connection to Canada.

Uh, I see this a lot, for example, in passenger injury cases. So someone will take a cruise on board, one of the major cruise lines out of it. Florida or out of California, they will get injured or get sick on that, on that cruise ship. And they come home and they want to Sue the cruise line for some reason, uh, often in their passenger contracts, uh, there is, was that requires them to go litigate either in Florida.

Or California or wherever the, the shipping company is. Um, likewise. Yeah, most commercial contracts for the shipment of goods. The carrier will have an exclusive jurisdiction clause in their bill of lading that says, if you're going to Sue us, you have to Sue us. And it's usually in their home jurisdiction.

So a German owned shipping company would typically have, in course of Germany, um, or, or the courts of the UK are also a common choice cause they're considered to be more neutral, but I'd also say they are more common in the shipping industry. Uh, we also have laws in Canada that allow you to Sue in Canada most notably, right?

Something that we call section 46 of the Marine liability act. So certain aspects of exclusive jurisdiction clauses in bills of lading are nullified in the country courts, if there's a connection to Canada, but certainly those issues arise all the time. And yes, sometimes we have to look at it and say, what laws going to apply, uh, to this particular case.

And then you'd go through the. Private international law analysis that you would learn in law school. I interviewed a standee Fisher recently. He's a leading arbitrator. I saw, I was wondering because of those jurisdictional issues. Is arbitration a big thing in Americano? Well, certainly, um, I think now I'm probably doing as many arbitrations as I am court hearings.

Um, they arise frequently. I've had, I think, uh, uh, Two arbitration matters since this pandemic has been ongoing. I'm in the midst of one now involving an injury to a worker, um, uh, on a ship. Um, I've had a number that, where there are the matter has been referred to arbitration either in London or in Singapore, which are large arbitration hubs in the international shipping community.

So, yes, uh, it's, it's very common. Uh it's partly because, um, I think, yeah, arbitration can resolve disputes faster. It's also because the parties can craft their dispute resolution mechanism and there is still some element of concern that, um, courts in certain parts of the world. Aren't going to be as receptive as so neutral round like England or Singapore, where it's viewed as having an established legal system where everybody can get an equal, a fair shake at the, at, uh, the justice process.

Right. So before Colbert, I'm sure you had to travel a lot to these arbitration hubs to conduct arbitrations. And was there a lot of travel involved? And what about now when you signed your conducting overcorrection? Is that online? Well now it's, uh, it's online and we've become a, you know, very, everyone has become very frequent, uh, users of zoom or Google meats or Microsoft teams and all the various platforms out there.

So now they're being conducted, uh, virtually, uh, previously I did not have to travel so much for the arbitrations, um, because most of my arbitrations were done in Canada. I, although I have had a few, uh, outside outside of Canada, Uh, those I've attended Bible telephone, as well as through, you know, the miracle of email.

And I started practicing in a day when we didn't have email. Uh, so, but there were still a fair bit of travel in, in my practice compared to many of my other colleagues in other, other areas of practice. Hmm. So, um, tell me about your. First court experience, as you mentioned, the first part, you, as you were just throwing it and you get these young lawyers that just, you know, they don't have maybe the good guidance that you have from mr.

Drafty or whatever it is. Did you make any blenders at first? And what did you learn from that? Oh, I'm sure I made lots of blenders and there's a, there's a couple of, uh, that I, uh, joke about to this day, but there's three that come to mind. Um, one was my very first court appearance as counsel in a matter.

And I was still in law school. I think it was the summer after my first year of law school. I was volunteering for the legal aid clinic at my law school, in the criminal division. And the reason I picked criminal was because you got into court and that's what I wanted to do. And so I was representing some fellow and he was charged with some traffic offense.

I think it was driving without insurance or producing false evidence of insurance or something like that. And, uh, so it was right after the first, uh, first year of law school and I get up bright and early for my, my 10 o'clock court appearance. And I put on my, my only suit, my freshly pressed only suit.

And I thought I would, it was at, uh, the courthouse. It used to be at young and shopper and just be a provincial court there. And so I thought I would stop at the, uh, the little diner that's across the street and I'll make sure I had a breakfast. So I had fuel in me to go and. I remember, I, I got to the dire and I ordered a big breakfast and a came and got in front of me.

And I just completely lost my appetite and got nauseous, realizing, you know, that I was about to go into court and represent somebody on some matter, um, that obviously you're going to be very important to them, but it is just that, that sheer moment of terror that that's, that struck. Uh, then I remember the first jury trial, uh, I ever did.

And it was back when we were on the, uh, days of the running list. And that, that was a system where you didn't get a fixed date for trial, but rather there was a sittings that started on a particular day, usually like the day after labor day or something. And then your number was called. And when you were called, you started, and this was up in Berry.

And I remember getting a call about it was about 10:00 AM on a Tuesday morning saying that my trial was starting at two. And I looked down and it will, and I realized that I was wearing a pair of oxblood shoes. I didn't a little, like the one day I don't wear my black shoes, the office, and I had to go to court.

And my first day of this trial wearing a pair of oxblood shoes, I've never owned a pair of oxblood shoes. Since that, since that date. And also in the course of that trial, or remember to be aware of the rolly wheels and the co chairs, or because we were the gowns and I had rolled over my gowns, uh, when I was sitting down and other counsel on the opposite side was a, was a great lawyer.

He's now a judge as well. Um, But I remember I had rolled over my gowns and he asked a question, will witness those going to object to, so I began to stand up, but my gallons were caught underneath my chair. And so it yanked me back down into my seat in this floppy manner. The entire courtroom broke up in laughter a lot as I feel, as I flailed around being caught up in my own gallons.

So I've since learned from that. Always fold your gowns in on your seat. Uh, w when you're sitting in the chair and the chair has rolly wheels, and then, uh, one that L still to this day haunts me as a maritime lawyer. That was probably about 20 years ago. Now I'm, I'm a cross examining a witness, and it was a boat collision on, uh, one of the, uh, uh, lakes in the Muskoka area.

And it was a terrible collision. And, uh, there was fatalities and severe injuries. Um, And it happened late at night. And one of the issues was visibility as between the various voters and I'm cross examining this witness. And part of my role was to establish how dark it was and therefore how unable. Oh, one of the operators would have been to see the other one.

So cross a cross, examining this witness and I'm getting out of them that it's dark and the moon wasn't out, et cetera, et cetera. And then I also, and I went, I took a step too far and I said, and there weren't any streetlights on Werther. And as it came out of my mouth, everybody in the courtroom began to realize like, of course not, it's the middle of a Lake.

So, uh, you know, I had a lot of great experiences in my, in my early career, um, that we all make mistakes. Uh, we all do little things that, uh, uh, embarrass us, but, you know, 20 years later they become great stories to tell the dinner parties, right? As long as you can learn from every experience and grow from it.

That's what it's about. So what would you tell that first few years, lawyer going into the courtroom lost his appetite. I would say that there is no substitute shoot for hard work. Uh, there was no substitute for preparation. Um, yeah. And you may not be able to bill it all to a client. Uh, it may seem unreal.

Unnecessary, but it is, it is necessary. Uh, and these are just the things you have to do to master your craft and to master your abilities. Um, I remember once, uh, I think I was an article in student and I had a trial which involved, um, a fuel injection system of a Jaguar motor vehicle. And I don't know much about cars or at least at that time, I didn't, I wasn't very mechanical, but I went to the Toronto public library and pulled as many books on, uh, on engines and fuel injection systems and taught myself as much as I could learn about how a car engine with a fuel injection system worked.

So I could understand the, the mechanics behind it all. Um, you know, could ability of that work to, to a client. But that was for me, the, the important thing, the important thing was mastering my craft and, you know, I won that trial. Right. And I think that's what people who are starting out have to realize is that it's going to be a lot of incredibly hard work in your first year.

Five years. Um, and it will continue on for the rest of your career, but particularly in those first five years, and you'd have to be prepared to put in the time and to put in the work. That's absolutely true. There's no substitute for hard work determination. Um, you said you started out at a maritime firm and that's kind of what got you into the maritime field, right?

No, I started at. At an insurance firm, insurance and litigation firm, I should say more of a litigation firm that had a lot of insurance work. And then as I was there, it became more and more insurance oriented. Um, and then from there I left to go pursue a degree in maritime law and came back to, uh, join, uh, uh, chief justice stroppy.

Okay. And at that point, justice strategy was doing exclusively American mall. No, he wasn't doing at school. So he had a large maritime practice, but he also had a commercial litigation, civil litigation practice as well. Okay. It seems like you were assigned before. It's a very niche area, at least the key point of view to get it, you know, look at yourself, going back.

You're an ambitious young lawyer and you want to do something with an international elements, perhaps even maritime law itself. What would you tell that young lawyer, how would they get into it one way or another? If they don't have a firm that's willing to take that for certain areas? I think it would be very difficult unless you find somebody that already practices in the area.

Um, when I decided to do my career change, go from being a litigation lawyer, or an insurance litigation, lawyer to a maritime lawyer. I went off and I went to school to do so. And, uh, I went to the, no the, the best LLM program in the world for, uh, for that, um, decide to come back to Toronto because it was home.

And then I spent about a year trying to develop my own maritime law practice, and I was not very successful at it. Well, largely because there were established players in the market. Um, so I ended up joining one of the established players in the market and, uh, took off from there. Uh, so for a young lawyer, who's interested in a particular area, I would say, seek out the best, uh, of the, uh, other lawyers in that area.

Uh, to try to work with them, uh, seek out the best education in that area, if you are, if you are, you know, uh, absolutely intent on becoming a great tax lawyer, um, do an LLM program, uh, in tax law. Although I suggest working for a few years before you go back to do an album, um, If you're looking for something international, you may have to be prepared to move to a market that is much more international.

When young people come to me and say, Oh, I want to be a maritime lawyer. I say, that's great. Move to London, England. Because the stuff that they do in London, um, is so much more, uh, voluminous as well as advanced and complex compared to what we do here. Um, but that brings with it a whole new set of problems, uh, you know, picking up and moving across the world and trying to get, uh, in the bar of another jurisdiction.

Um, I will admit that it's not easy. It takes a lot of hard work and a little bit of luck. Sure. Yeah. That's always the thing is more like artwork, but a bit about, yes. Um, I noticed actually that you're looking to grow your firm. You're always looking to grow your firm. You're on the you're on the expansion mode, which is a really great thing.

Um, looking at a junior lawyer to hire that side, assuming all else being equal and they all have, let's say a year or two of insurance experience, what type of traits that you're looking for or anything beyond the experience. Yeah. I'm looking for people that have a passion for the law. Yeah. You can't go into this career thinking it's just a job.

You have to be folks that this is your career. This is your life's work. It is your calling. So people that want to dedicate their life to the service of the law. People that are bright and articulate and written skills are exceptionally important as lawyers. What we mainly do is we write, um, and nowadays with so much more being done based on written submissions, emails, et cetera.

Good quality written materials is, is key. Uh, I'm looking for people that aren't afraid of hard work. And I always like to see on a resume, uh, people who have had jobs outside of law, um, that show that they've, they've worked hard. Uh, if your first job, uh, is working as a research assistant for a professor in law school, it makes me wonder.

Um, because you've never really done anything outside of that. I like to see people who have on their resumes, you know, that they worked at McDonald's when they were in high school or, uh, did something else, but they got their hands a little dirty. So you have to have ambition. You have to have a passion for the law.

Um, You have to have a willingness to work hard and advance your career. You have to have good writing skills. Um, although all those traits I'll take this opportunity to plug an internationally trained lawyers, because I never had international experience. They generally work quite hard to get qualified and they have jurisdiction and they never Ontario again, so.

Something to consider. Oh, uh, uh, certainly. Yeah. Nice. Um, so now let's just fast forward a few years and, uh, the lawyers there he's at the firm, he or she doing really well. Uh, now kind of the next. Phase in your career from, let's say the five to 20 years, the first five years, you've just worked hard to try to become a competent lawyer after that.

What do you think the challenges are? And if I can point you in the direction of building firm and marketing. So tell us about that a bit. Well, I think as you move into the next phase of your career, it becomes the phase where you have to begin to build your own book. And that takes, um, uh, as much work, if not more than it does to become a lawyer, uh, you have to first off do great work to begin with.

You have to provide great client service. That's returning the phone calls, returning the emails. All that sort of thing. You have to get it right when you do work for your clients so that they feel that they've gotten good value for their service and you've gotten the result or the best result you can for them.

So there'll be the word of mouth referrals and the respect that you'll begin to develop within the community. And then you also have to get out there. You have to write articles, you have to attend conferences, you have to speak at conferences. You have to begin to build your network. Um, no one ever got a file by sitting behind their desk and is waiting for the phone to ring.

Um, maybe you can, in some smaller communities where, you know, you, if you're the only, or the one of the two lawyers in town, um, but in a large community, um, or in a large. Practice area you're going to have to get out there and you're going to have to make yourself known. Um, there are some people who are fortunate enough to work at firms that, um, generate lots of work.

Um, you know, there's a number of, uh, firms that are like that, where the work just keeps coming in and you can, uh, you can be at that firm and the work will get handed to you. And that's certainly how it was for me in the first year. Couple of years of my practice, but eventually you have to go out and begin to see the clients and have them trust you and like you and want to refer work to you.

Cause they know they're going to get good value. Do you find that any form of publicity works better than the other or you just need a bit of everything speaking the writer and the staff to put it all together. One thing kind of worked. I think it depends on the individual. Uh, and also depends on the practice area.

Um, for me, I've always been, uh, more of the speaking, the writing, um, uh, I've done conferences and things like that. Uh, I know that there were other men and women out there. There who are very much a, what I call lunch focused that they take someone to lunch every single day. Um, and that's, and they view, uh, you know, there's that marketing tip that you're going to eat lunch anyway, you might as well eat it with somebody else.

Right? So I know people that, uh, make a practice of always going to lunch with somebody new every day or having a coffee meeting every day. Uh, there were some people that I spent lots of time going to conferences or other networking events, uh, and try just to do, you know, the cocktail party circuit. Um, so you have to, uh, find out what works for you.

If you're not the kind of person that likes to get up in front of a conference and give a paper on something to, to an industry or a legal organization, then it's not going to go well for you. If you, if you can't. Present. Well, if you can't speak well, so you're going to have to find something else to do it.

So it depends on your individual personality, but I do think a lot of it has to do with the personal relationships, um, as well as your ability to deliver when the time comes, uh, buying, uh, uh, a client or prospective client, a fancy lunch. Isn't going to, to win you much business, you have to be able to deliver.

Absolutely. It's always about to climb service and providing the best service and advice that you can. Um, I'm always impressed by people of your vintage, such experience that you keep producing and you keep working hard and ultimately throughout your whole career. So is there any tough you can give, obviously you said the first five years you have to work hard, but then it never ends up the continuous.

So, how do you manage the all firm and the employment issues that are involved along with the actual legal work that you do? And then on top of all that your school publishing and speaking. So is there a certain way you, at the bottom of your schedule that allows a certain block of writing time and producing and how do you just combine all of that together?

How would you advise us to go ahead and be able to produce with such somebody else? Again, it comes back to, you know, hard work. Uh, very little, uh, weekends to yourself. Um, uh, very few days of holiday. Uh, and I know that's not a very good answer. That's not a very satisfactory answer for many, uh, but you know, that's the reality of it.

Uh, I mean, I think in my first. Two years of practice or something. I had all of like five days off. Um, you know, I don't necessarily recommend that today, but that was part of the reality is that hard work requires a lot of time. Uh, I think good schedule management, uh, is, uh, is another important factor. Um, So, for example, the semesters that I'm teaching, uh, I make sure I block off a, I usually teach on a Monday night.

So I usually block off from noon Monday, uh, for no appointments, nothing to be done so I can sit down and, uh, uh, you know, reread the course materials and prepare the lecture. And even though I've done it, yeah. No many times every year, I still reread the cases cause I'm expecting yeah. Students too. And, uh, you know, w go over my lecture notes, you block off that time, you block off the time, uh, for certain conferences that, you know, you want to go to and you're going to have to block off time on either side of it for, for travel and for preparation.

So. Part of it is just schedule management. And part of it is, is picking what's important to you. What about the writing? Where does that fit into your schedule? Cause there's, you have a lot of publications and I think as a lawyer, that's quite a key. A lot of it has to do with a lot of my publications.

The last number of years had. Been connected to conferences in some way. So I've usually been asked to speak at a, a conference or give a paper at a conference. And so in that sense, you're killing two birds with one stone. You, uh, present a particular paper for, you know, from, in my example, the Canadian maritime law association or the transportation lawyers association.

Um, and then you have. A paper that you've done with it, which you can, then you can then publish. It's also, you know, if you, uh, are involved in a case that is of particular interest, you can take. What you've learned is already in your head from that case and turn something out. I tell younger associates that, you know, you may have worked on a research memo or a, the bones of an opinion for something.

If it's an interesting issue, you can later on take that and turn that into a paper, which you can publish in one of the. Trade magazines or something like that. That's great advice. I'm trying to repurpose. They quote a free post materials. Um, you, you mentioned your teaching experience at UFT. What, what kind of advice do you give your students as a general time type thing besides, you know, work hard and how do you succeed in law?

What, what are you telling these young, ambitious little grads?

Well, um, You know, I, I, I tell them that just because they went to law school, uh, doesn't necessarily mean they have to be lawyers. And I caution people about going to law school and becoming a lawyer if they're not doing it for the right reasons. When young people come to me and say, I want to be a lawyer.

My question to them is always, well, why. And if they don't have a good answer to that question, then I tell them that you need to go and think about that question, uh, because you're going to be unhappy. And there's a lot of people who get trapped in this lawyer trap where they are bright people in undergrad.

Yeah, but they're not really sure what they want to do. So somebody says you should go, you should go to law school. Cause you know, you're really smart. Uh, so they go to law school and they're not really sure that they why they're in law school, but you know, they do okay. In law school, uh, then they, uh, get a good job, you know, either on Bay street or somewhere else.

And now they are, you know, 27 years of age, they've got seven or eight years of education behind them, probably a sizeable student debt. They're making a pretty good dollar because, you know, we paid lawyers pretty well, particularly young lawyers pretty well. And now they're on this treadmill five years, go by.

They're still struggling to pay student debt. Uh, they now maybe have a spouse or partner and they might have a mortgage. And Darnell on this treadmill and they never really knew why they went to law school other than somebody said, Hey, you should go to law school. So unless you really know why you want to be a lawyer, you're not going to be happy.

I did. You're not gonna become very good at it unless you have the passion for it. So that's one thing I would say a lose. Secondly, um, I think it's very important for lawyers to have the clarity of thought in terms of what are the real issues that are involved in this case, particularly in a litigation practice.

No good lawyers can spot all the issues. Great lawyers can spot the issues that really matter. And those will be the issues that they, they advance in a case. So have confidence in, in your intellectual and analytical ability to realize that yeah, there are arguments here, but I don't have to make all those arguments.

Here's the one really good one that the case is going to turn on. That's pretty, it definitely takes experience and separates the great from the good, I think, um, You know, the, the last, uh, few 10, and you had 20, 20 as, as major changes for all of us. Um, how how's it been for you at what kind of changes have you experienced and what kind of changes would you still like to see perhaps in the legal system, if any?

Well, 2020 has been a year of great changes. And what it's brought for me is it's really pushed me into the. Digital world, uh, and the digital practice. Uh, I started practicing law in a day when we didn't have email, we didn't have cell phones or rather than cell phones weren't as ubiquitous as they are today.

Um, I did not have a computer on my desk. Uh, so everything was a paper file. Um, Uh, so, uh, and we didn't even have the, when I first started, we didn't even have the, the fancy word perfect that we had today was that all blue screen word. Perfect. Where it didn't look like a page, uh, on the screen. Mmm. So I've seen a transformation in the last 20 years in terms of the way digital is caught up.

And, you know, as, as litigation lawyers, we have stacks of files and bankers boxes and cabinets galore. And over the last six months, I've come to realize I don't need all that paper as much as I thought he did. Um, and so we have the transition to a much more, uh, paperless type operation. And I see us going more paperless, uh, going forward, whether we will.

Ever be completely paperless. I don't know. I don't want to leave the practice could do that, but I certainly see that as in the future, we will not have the, uh, the stocks of paper and the bankers boxes like we once did. Uh, and I think that's generally a good thing. Mmm. I also think that the stuff that we always had to travel for, we don't have to anymore all the meetings that we went to in the time that was consumed doing that.

Um, you know, I was discovery yesterday in a multiparty action, where there were lawyers from all over the province and one from the United States. Um, and we were all, you know, there was 11 of us on, on a zoom. Uh, the discovery before that would have been thousands of hours, uh, or dollars with the time of people traveling, uh, to just to get to a discovery and the time that would have been spent on that.

We didn't have to do that anymore. Let's go now to say, cause you feel the actual discovery is as effective, you know, some limitations with not being face to face. Yes. Yeah. Uh, I think there were certain cases where it's fine. I think in, uh, some of my, uh, Uh, commercial part of my commercial practice, where a lot of times the witness on the other side doesn't have a personal or emotional connection to the matter.

And it's going to be heavily document driven. And the witness on the other side is there to confirm certain facts or trying to elicit certain emissions from them. But. Uh, it's uh, whereas in a personal injury case where you want to size up the person across the table, get a look at them, um, uh, see how they react, um, the field or emotions, that sort of thing.

Um, and there's also a personal connection that you, you, with the other counsel involved. That you, that you lack, um, you know, uh, at the end of my multi-day discovery, you know, it's common for council to have lunch together or go for a drink at the, at the end of it all. Um, uh, didn't uh, you know, didn't happen in this case.

So I think back to, uh, Earlier this month, or I guess it was in July that I did a, um, court of appeal hearing by zoom with the court of appeal. And it would have been common at the end of the court of appeal hearing for all the council involved. And there was four lawyers on either side, uh, you know, for the eight lawyers to go out and have a drink, or have a coffee at the, uh, cafeteria, the, at the Osgood afterwards.

It doesn't happen. So we're going to lose that, some of that personal touch, unfortunately, that has made, um, uh, the legal profession, a profession, not just a business, right. And going forward. Do you foresee any other trainers, big or small or any. Well, it's hard to see what the big changes would be. If, uh, if I could predict that type of stuff accurately, I might go into the stock markets.

Um, I do think we will finally be, uh, much more, uh, digital friendly, uh, the Ontario rules that solar procedures still don't provide for service by email. That's going to change. I hope. Uh, the filing of documents, um, I hope will change. Um, I, you know, I would, uh, I remember years ago they used to be something called the Toronto document exchange, which was, uh, where law firms and other businesses.

We had a, like a mailbox at a central location and you put. Documents for each other. They are. I'd like to see that, uh, develop, uh, electronically so that we could serve all the other parties to, to a lawsuit just by uploading a uploading, a pleading to a, uh, uh, like a Dropbox type thing, uh, that all the parties have access to.

And that be at rather than having to fax it out to everybody swear an affidavit of service. All of that sort of cumbersome stuff that would, that we do now could be very much simplified by, uh, is the time sort of a central repository for each case. There's a lot of room for improvement. Yeah. We're on track.

I got a couple more sort of questions for you. Sure. Um, you mentioned that story when you were first going into court and you felt like you couldn't eat your stomach was turning. Does that ever happen? Yes. Um, not to the same degree, but sure. Whenever I've got something, a big on the go, you still feel the butterflies in your stomach.

Um, you know, I have now enough years of experience behind me that, you know, I don't think there's any case I can't handle. Um, but you know, there's still times where you want to do a good job for the client. You are facing strong opposition. Um, you know, you're gonna get a little bit of butterflies in the stomach, but that's what makes, um, uh, makes this profession great.

Is that there's still a thrill to do. Um, every time you do it. Yeah. I mean, it, it's not a paralyzing of course it, but it's, um, uh, it's a, it's exciting than I imagined in some sense, like, uh, like a pro athlete, uh, when they were about to start a race, you know? Yeah. I think you need that. That's a critical element that excitement and thrill.

Yes, you're doing what you do and it keeps you coming back. It's so important. And it comes towards that passion that you described, you know, when you're going into the law, I think it all comes together that passion that drive that artwork and that's really how to, how to be successful. Um, that ship's yours.

We have a name was and quotes on them. There's some quite famous ones out there. If you had a huge, massive check, you have a. On a ship, um, or a vocal one for that matter.

Well, you know, it's, I don't know about the ship, but it's funny. You asked me about a quote, my father. Was a great collector of quotes and saying, see, he collected hundreds of thousands of them and even has a website, uh, of all his various sayings that he collected over the years. And so I grew up with saying know on placards all around my house.

I don't know if there's any one in particular. And I don't know if there's any one that I could quote, although if I was to do something on a billboard. Yeah. I would. Probably say something to you. The fact of, um, although I cannot change the world, I can change the world for somebody. Beautiful. That's so nice.

You want to leave us with any last words? That's a beautiful thing. And I may not. I think it's in fact, our duty to make a change one way or another. If not the world, at least an individual is to try to try to help people. But. And you've been very generous with your time and insights. So we thank you for sharing, sharing that with us, but before we let you go, any, any last words that might be how people can contact you if they need to.

Sure. Um, let me circle back to the. Question that I asked when they will say, no, I want to be a lawyer or what should I do to how to become a lawyer, et cetera. And I asked them why, and this is also a question that I often ask when I'm interviewing for an articling student or a young associate as to why did you go to law school?

Or why, why do you want to be a lawyer? And the answer in my view has to, in some shape or form be because I want to help people. Or I want to do some good in the world, um, because that's really what I think this profession is about. And remember, it's a profession before it's a business. And, um, the answer is, uh, because I had nothing else to do or I thought it might be a good idea or make a lot of money.

That's not a very good answer. Um, I think the answer needs to be, I got into this profession because I can contribute to my society in some way I can help make the world a little bit of a better place. Uh, I can help people in some way. And I think that that's what being a lawyer is really. Thank you, Mark and people are always welcome to contact me.

Uh, and I'm reachable, uh, out there on the web, or if Mark MIRC at IO law law. Dot CA. Thanks. Thank you. Awesome.

Thank you for listening to the end. If you need to read it. Yeah, I'm at Ivey at Charney legal DAP CA the homeless podcast, Charney legal.ca. Look forward to seeing you on the next one. Bye for now.