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So as a matter of a introduction, Charles ticker, thank you for being here. Uh, delighted to have you you're, uh, very experienced estates, lawyer, specifically estates litigation, as opposed to the solicitor side, the estate planning, uh, you've also developed your practice into a mediation practice, which is somewhat of an extension of estate litigation.

I'd love to hear more about all that, but. As a starting point let's, let's go to how you started. If you'd like, you can take us back to your adolescent years and what prompted you to study law and then take us through the beginning part of your journey. Well, thanks very much Avi. And thank you for inviting me to chat with you today.

Um, well, I grew up in Montreal, um, and uh, in the morning, the early fifties and, uh, I moved to, uh, To, uh, Toronto, uh, in the mid seventies, after I graduated from undergraduate studies at McGill, but, uh, just talking about growing up in Montreal, uh, um, uh, I, uh, was good student, uh, never, never interested in in law is a as a youngster, as an adolescent.

I always thought I wanted to be a doctor. Um, matter of fact, in the. And the fifth grade, we had a project, uh, uh, that, uh, we had to interview somebody for, for school in grade five. And, uh, I ended up interviewing my pediatrician because I was interested in medicine. Uh, actually he was my second choice. My first choice was we have time was actually Dickie more.

I don't know if you remember Dickie more maybe before your time, but Dicky Moore was a. Great hall of Famer with the Montreal Canadians, and also the Toronto maple Leafs and scoring champion. And, uh, I, he was my childhood hero. And, uh, so, uh, I, my dad had taken me to a hockey game. I remember it was the haves and the Blackhawks, and I, I had met Dickey more at a synagogue father and son dinner.

And. And I shook his hand after the dinner. And I wrote a note before the game and I gave it to the guard outside the dressing room and said, this is for mr. Moore. And I said, I don't know if you remember me, but I'm the guy who shook your hand at the synagogue last month. And I'm doing this interview for school.

And could you, could I interview you and, uh, um, Never heard from him and the time was passing. So I had to interview my pediatrician. He was the fallback, cause I never heard from Dickie more interesting, but a month later I get a phone call and my mum picks up the phone. She says, It's sticky more on the phone.

So it says hide it's sticky more. I'm sorry we were on the road. I just getting back to you still want to do that interview and, you know, idiot that I was, you know, always honest, honest lawyer. And I said, uh, Oh, I'm sorry. I already did my interview so we don't have to have, wow. You must regret that to this day.

Yeah. And, and so that was the, that's a crazy story. I do regret it. And actually at my wedding, one of my good friends who knew this story at my wedding, he was one of the, he's making a speech. He says, I want to read a, I tell cramp from Dickie more for you. So, uh, anyway, getting sidetracked. But, uh, so we to get back on track.

So, no, I never wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to be a doctor. And, uh, I, you know, uh, did well. Um, then I went to university and I don't know if this has happened to other members. So if you were your audience, but you know, I was living at home in Montreal and I was, so it was community to Miguel, but, um, One thing they don't tell you about university is you're basically, you got to manage your time and all of a sudden I'm at this university and you got one hour of classes a day and, you know, and, and.

I wasn't as disciplined as I should have been. So I did well, but I didn't do, I guess well enough to make the cut for med school. So I, I applied to a lot of med schools and, um, uh, didn't get into med school. Uh, so then I decided I took a year off. I think. Um, no, I'm sorry. I didn't take a year off as a fallback.

I, I wrote my L sets and applied to about a half dozen law schools and I got, I got into, I think about five law schools, early acceptance. So I ended up going to. Moving to, uh, to, uh, Toronto? Uh, no, actually I had taken a year off that's right. Then I moved to Toronto and I decided I'll go to Osgood, even though he got accepted to Miguel Blasko.

Cause I figured there was more medical schools in Ontario and if I'm a resident of Ontario, maybe I have a better chance of getting into med school. And that was still my thinking first year law school. Um, but I just said, I'll just try it. Anyway, it turned out. I really liked law school and I really did well at it.

I, you know, I was getting A's and B's I was doing great. And not only that, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed the intellectual dialogue. Um, and the, and the, the professors would, who were just a couple of years older than me, some of them, and they were brilliant. Um, I remember, um, Uh, now justice, uh, ed Bella Babbo was my contracts professor in first year.

And, uh, you know, he got me even to do a guest lecture of his, of his class one day. And we, you know, we became friends in law school. So, um, but. You know, he was just brilliant asshole as the old word, uh, for the most part at Oscar, the professors. So after first year I said, you know, I forgot about med school and, uh, I stuck with law.

And, um, so, you know, there's some people I guess, so always want to be a lawyer. That's not me. I sort of fell into it. And, um, and, uh, It's also, we can talk about later. I also sort of fell into the estates law and we can talk about that later. How that that's what life is, you know, sometimes you just, something just comes across your way and you know, it happens and you, you get into it right.

Anyway. So what happened then after law school, it sounds like you had a great experience there. What was your first job in and in what field of law? Yeah. So my, I got called to the bar 1980. I love saying by the way, you've been a lawyer since, before I was born. Thank you very much. You're making me feel really good.

Um, anyway, so my F I, when I got out of the bar, there was a recession going on. It was a tough time, uh, to, uh, To find a job. Um, I had articled at a small firm and, uh, they had me doing what I know the young lawyers will even relate to this, but in those days, if you want to do a search of Tuttle real estate, that you had to go down to the retros, to the office, pick up the old dusty books and go back and do, you know, title searches.

And that's what most of my articling was. I did some small queen scored work and some research, but it was a small firm. I didn't particularly enjoy my article. Um, there was a counsel at that firm who became sort of a mentor to me the late, uh, Ben Sischy, who became a master of the superior of the Supreme court.

Um, and I used to chat with him and he was a brilliant barrister. Right. Um, and, uh, Anyways. So it was a small from my article then. And my first job was also with a two man firm and I took over for the litigator who was leaving and, um, you know, didn't really know what I was doing. Uh, I was lucky to get the position, but I think my first job paid about.

$15,000 a year. Uh, you know, which was not great. I mean, compared to what a big firm would have paid, but that's what they were paying then. And then I stayed there for a few years and then I, I went to, uh, a mid-sized firm and like, you know, got double the salary. And I lasted about five years there. That was a firm called , which is still around, uh, and did litigation there, civil litigation.

And then, uh, 1986. Uh, I went out on my own and, uh, that was, that was a scary time. Yeah, I'm sure. So, I mean, I'm also a sole practitioner. It's me doing everything, uh, at least at this stage, um, And you're the first sole practitioner who's I've spoken to on this podcast. Everyone else has been a other, a member of a big firm or a leader of a big firm.

So I've a special affinity to you if you will. And, uh, you know, you have a great practice and a great firm, it looks like you've built up an expertise. So maybe you can just comment on. What went into those decisions? The career changes from one firm to the next, and then what precipitated you to go on your own?

And even more than that, I look at you now as such a fantastic lawyer, a leader in the state's field, I'm sure a lot of the firms out there would love to have yourself. Uh, an extension of that is what is keeping you as a sole practitioner, right? Um, anyway, I try not to use the word sole practitioner.

That's what the law society, the box that you check off. I always refer to myself as a boutique. From, you know, sounds a little, little more fancy. I don't know. Um, I guess, um, I never, um, I never really wanted to work with a large downtown firm. Um, yeah, that decision, I even, when I was looking for articling positions, I wasn't really, um, looking for, to work in a, in a large firm.

Um, and it was just not my cup of tea. Um, and. You know, in hindsight, yeah. Financially, it might've been better. Um, but I don't know if personally or emotionally it would have been better. And, uh, and we can talk about that later. So for me, I wanted small to medium firms. I thought I wanted to do. Uh, criminal law and I articled, uh, I'm sorry.

I interviewed for a few articling positions in criminal firms and, but you know, it didn't pan out. So I went to a small firm so early in my practice, I was doing a mixed bag. I was doing criminal law. I was doing civil litigation. I was doing some family law, um, not too much estate litigation then. Uh, and then.

When I went on, I decide to go on my own just that it was just one of those things. It was time to, to leave. Uh, and, uh, it was just a mutual party, the ways. And I went on my own and, and I remember sitting there, I think my office of sharing space of Bay and Bloor, and was just sitting my office and, you know, Waiting for the phone to ring.

I mean, when he got him saying, what the heck did I do guys? And those days, nobody I knew about networking. Um, you didn't learn this. There was no social media. There was, you know, there was no, you know, groups where you went out and networked. And I, so I hope I don't mind telling you I'm digressing, but tell a little stories or maybe feel free.

So the first thing that my dad told me to do when I went on my own was. He said, look, you're starting a business. You can need a lot. You're starting practice. Doesn't need a line of credit. You need a re you may be looking for a referral source, says you've got to get to know your bank manager. Take them to lunch.

So I took, I went to the, my bank and negotiate my first line of credit. I said, I'd like to take you to lunch. I take the manager to lunch and this nice restaurant downtown, if we're sitting at lunch and, uh, Looking at the prices on the menu. I said, so kale, you know, it's promotional, right. It off. He turns to me, he says, you know, thank you very much, Charles, from vitamin, like, you know, he says, I have some good news.

I said, yeah, yeah. You just got a big file from me. He says, yeah, I'm leaving the branch, going to another branch. And I'm saying to myself, Great. Now I've got to take another manager out for lunch. So anyway, so in the beginning, you know, it was my, you know, friends and relatives who were helping me out and doing house steals and stuff, and then some lawyers would send stuff.

Um, and, but things built up. And then I moved to, to a couple other firms to share space. I always liked sharing space with other lawyers. And then in the late. Uh, 80, 89 90, uh, uh, my, uh, brother-in-law who was managing my wife's family's business, which was like a real estate holding company that had some.

Uh, industrial properties said, you know, once you commit. And so then I was doing like litigation, right. And, and I said, okay. Uh, but I said, you know, I'm not ready to close up my practice. So what happened was, so I went there in the early nineties, um, And, uh, I was doing some of the real estate management and leases and stuff, and, uh, I still kept my practice going, but it started changing its theme because I didn't have time to do court stuff.

I got more into solicitor's work and that's how I started getting into the estate Syria. So I started going to seminars and conferences on wheels and reading up and. You know, getting precedents and started building up in a state solicitor practice. Interesting. And then, and I never gave it up because I couldn't, I couldn't get the lawyer thing out of me, you know, like, you know, like I'd be sitting in a meeting there at the office and they say, stop thinking like a lawyer.

I can't help it. I was trained to think like a lawyer, cause you know, you know, lawyers are always questioning everything and you know, business guys are, let's go for it and say, wait a minute, not so fast. Have you read this agreement then what about this? You know, that's how we're trained. Right. Anyway, I discovered this real estate thing in as a profession.

It wasn't for me. So. After about nine years, 10 years, I bumped my hand. I went back to the practice of law, but now I was doing more wills and estate. So I'm seeing a lot of rules in the States, but then the litigation started coming in the estate disputes and a few years ago, uh, I don't know if it's six, seven years, so I just gave up the wheel practice entirely.

Um, and, uh, Focus, I guess in the last seven, eight years solely, or maybe a little longer solely on estate, state litigation, I always did litigation and that's how I got into a state litigation. So, uh, and it's funny, it took me like 30 years to find an area of law that I was really passionate about. No, I always enjoyed it, but it was the estate stuff that really, um, spoke to me and that I'm really passionate about.

And that's why I probably am still doing it. I always tell people like, I'll stop practicing when you know, when they have to other, you know, I just don't have the strength to do it anymore. They carry me away or it stops being fun. If I'm not having fun, I'll stop practicing. Yeah. Really amazing how you went on a journey and it took you so many years to find your niche, if you will.

And I mean, it's an inspiration that it takes so long and you got to kind of experiment. Uh, not only in, in law, different fields, but uh, even outside of law. And, um, I mean, that's what it takes to find your calling in a profession. That's what I learned from what you just said. Right. And I think the reason the state litigation I've enjoyed it is that.

Um, you know, I think it suited me personality and my approach to solving problems. I mean, uh, yes, I can be aggressive and I have to be in court and, you know, clients always say, I want a shark. I say, well, if you want a shark prepared to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars because sharks don't negotiate and they're just, you know, you can get huge bills.

Um, but. What I found, um, at least in the state bar in Toronto is that it's a relatively small group. When I started going to the conferences, I guess years ago in the late eighties, we noticed he, maybe he got. It's you know, 50 lawyers at an estate summit or something conference. Now you'll get like four or 500, but still relatively speaking, the number of lawyers that focus on state litigation is much less than criminal law or matrimonial law or real estate law.

So. We, I got to knew the, the, the, you know, the, the lawyers that are focusing this area and you know, their colleagues, um, and they're, they're, they're friends and they're good people to work with and that I respect tremendously. And that's also, which makes, made the work, uh, more enjoyable. Like sometimes clients have a problem.

That's a, wait a minute. How can you shake that lawyer's hand? Or how can you have a coffee with him? He's not he's on the other side of the case. I said, You know, when I was doing criminal law, I didn't have coffee with the, with the crown attorney, but when we're doing a state litigation, I said, we're focused on helping you, the client get out of this mess.

And it's important that we be able to have a dialogue. You'll be thanking us because the odds are you're going to settle your case. Anyway. You know, 95 plus percent, it's going to settle. So why do I want to go to war with the other war we should be trying to about the issues? So it was the approach, uh, which is more collaborative, at least in Toronto, uh, amongst the States part that.

That was attracted to me. It suited my personality and I found that it was able to not only enjoy what I'm doing, but get good results from the client. That's that's great. And I agree with you. It's a good member. Uh, the older members of the state's bar or friendly and helpful, and it's a nice spot to be a part of.

Um, so I mean, now that you specialize in estates the past few years, uh, again, I find it inspirational how you developed an estates practice. Relatively late in your career after a lot of experience. And it gives younger lawyers hope that there's always time to pivot, um, you know, especially as a sole practitioner, but always, uh, you, you got to follow your calling and do what's good for you professionally and you find a meaning eventually.

Yeah. I think, um, if you're, if you're going to be successful, the practice of law, um, and, and, and how you deem to assess whether it's financial or reputation successful to me is if you love and enjoy what you're doing. And so, you know, for young boys out there, like. You got to find what you're passionate about, and it may not be the practice of law.

Don't you mean to use your legal knowledge and do something else, writing a business, whatever, uh, speaking. Um, but, uh, You know, life is too short that you, you don't want to spend a whole career saying, you know, I, I, you know, I, I don't want to go to work in the morning or I'm not having a good time. So that is the difficult challenge.

I think in the practice law is finding something that you enjoy and that you want to do. So it's not a job. Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot of different follow-ups, but I'll maybe get into a bit of estate litigation with you as that's what you do right now. And, um, I mean, I read your book. Boobie boobie gets spooked cause really Bobby gets, Bobby gets booked cause the useful region was plugged there.

All right. It's a great book. I really recommend it. Uh, people read it and it's so user-friendly and accessible. Um, so before you get there to the details of the book, why you wrote it and what it's done for you, maybe just go into the initial sort of client contact and explain what is estate litigation?

What, what clients, what should they expect going into a state litigation? And also, um, you know, take your time on this one. What, what are the grounds for estate degrades and grounds for challenging a will? What are the reasons they could litigate? What are the options available if you will? Okay. So.

The initial contact is usually from, um, and, uh, we'll talk about litigation over wills. So though we're seeing now more litigation over powers of attorney. One of the, you know, the parent is still alive, but assuming that this is a case where the parent has died, um, typically, uh, The clients coming in are very, uh, emotional.

Uh, they're very upset. They were perceiving something is, it's not fair. That's, that's what they're coming to you about. Uh, there's an estate plan here, a will here. It's not fair. Uh, I'm getting a smaller share that my sibling or I'm cut out of the will. And, uh, they're upset, they're angry. Um, and usually, um, they, they don't have a good rapport with their siblings.

Uh, the goes way back. So, uh, the first thing I have to explain to them that is that, you know, fairness. So Lisa in Ontario is not. The test for whether or not a Will's going to be, uh, uh, successfully challenged. I mean, so the grounds are, you know, did the test state or lacked testamentary capacity? In other words, did, did the test Stater know what his or her assets were?

Uh, you understand? That, what a will does that he understand who the members of the family are, um, and who may have a claim to the estate. Uh, does he or she understand, you know, suffered from any delusions or, uh, or, uh, mental illness that may be affecting the ability to, to make an estate plan. So, Uh, or, and other grounds are, uh, undue influence, which is very hard to prove because the undue influencer is doing it in private, but there are red flags that were, you know, you look out for, you know, someone, all of a sudden, an elderly person would with some dementia, uh, close to their death, all of a sudden changes the wheel and does a complete one 80 and takes out people that were in the will and puts in, you know, the, uh, the new caregiver as a beneficiary or, you know, or, or.

Or put some times puts reasons in the wheel that don't make any sense. Um, you know, that's a red flag. If the person has been living alone is very dependent on one of the kids for care. And, uh, that child has sort of been keeping the other siblings out of the loop and not communicating, not allowing visits.

That's a red flag. So. Um, you know, and then people will come and say, well, this will is a forgery when that's another ground and you might get a handwriting analysis, but that's not that common, but it happens, um, uh, in proper execution of wills. A lot of people don't want to spend the money going to a lawyer.

So they get a wheel kit and they use the wrong number witnesses. They don't have two witnesses or they use a beneficiary or beneficiary spouse as a witness. And. Or, you know, they forget to put in a residue cost. So sometimes, you know, we see none, we will challenges, but we see wills that are very poorly drafted, unfortunately, sometimes by lawyers, but quite often the ones that are done poorly, maybe done by the testator himself or.

By a financial planner or by an accountant, you know, people that should not be doing wills. Um, so, you know, those are the major grounds, uh, that, uh, you'll see for doing the wheelchairs, lack of capacity, undue influence, forgery, uh, suspicious circumstances. Uh we're uh, someone's making women on their death bed or, you know, something like that.

Um, but the clients have to understand that. At least in Ontario, uh, there's no law that says adult children are, have to be treated equally. Um, it's not like in BC where, where you can have applied to the court to have them very the will, um, on moral grounds. You know, so, but you know, so there's will challenges, but that's not all that we've seen in the state litigation.

A lot of the times we get a lot of, uh, because I get are about people that are, um, co-executors, that are not getting along and therefore the state's not getting administered. So you're having applications to have a, an executive removed or a beneficiary's having a problem, not getting information from an executor.

Um, uh, you see support claims against the state by spouses or children or. Or parents sometimes, um, uh, claims for equalization on, on, um, somewhere to a divorce situation where a married spouse selects to, to make an equalization claim as opposed to taking a gift. So there's lots of things that. Yeah, comprise the state litigation.

Uh, you know, um, and then, like I said, we're seeing a lot of litigation now over powers of attorney and guardianship will people fighting over the, the money while the parents, you know, still alive, but you know, not capable. So that's a real growing area. So I'm, I'm on the solicitor side of things, at least at this stage.

And, uh, I asked you as someone who came from the solicitor side of things, you were a wheel drafter, and now you're on the litigation side of things. Is there any way for solicitors crafting lawyers? To protect themselves 100% by drafting a good role, and then not doing the due diligence. And then there's no way that it could litigate.

And what does that consist of? What is a Goodwill that'll protect you as a lawyer and prevent future litigation? Right? Well, there's, um, there's no, A hundred percent foolproof way to so-called Bulletproof throw a will even, uh, I've seen like fantastic wheels with very experienced practitioners will know what they're doing and we'll still get challenged if somebody wants to fight they'll fight.

Um, but what, what does drafting lawyers can do is make sure that, uh, they, um, you know, take certain steps to at least. You know, minimize the risk of a dispute. And I spoke about this recently at the estates and trusts summit. Uh, you know, you can totally avoid it because these things are so emotionally driven and people will fight, even though they may not have a fight case, but what you can do is first of all, It's important to know who your client is.

So, you know, you go to meet with the test Stater alone, the test there being of course, the person making the will. Uh, so, you know, sometimes when we're doing a litigation file and we get an order for production of the drafting Warrior's file, we'll see that one of the children sat in on the meeting. I mean, it doesn't, you know, it happens and, and that's a big no-no.

You have to meet them alone. I mean, some. Siblings will get upset even when they hear that their sibling drove the parent to the lawyer and sat in the waiting room. So you may be, want to make a note. Yeah. Sibling, you know, child drove parent to the meeting, but had the child stay in the waiting room. I had no conversation, both of them with them about the plan and, uh, and, um, and you have to take the time to really interview, uh, the, the client.

Get the family background, get the health background. And have you made all your wills while you changing it? Uh, take really good detailed notes, particularly if it's a potential contentious situation where someone's being cut out or somebody is not being treated equally. Like, you know, it's not enough to say.

Um, in the, in your notes, well, he's not leaving Johnny anything in the wheelchairs. Uh, I actually saw this with, well, you know, Johnny caused a lot of trouble for me, and that was the extent of it. No details. And what happened is, is when Johnny comes to see me, the litigator what's driving the dispute. It's not always the money.

It's sometimes just the lack of their funding for the affection of the parent. Even though parents no longer there, that's what kids are there. This sibling rivalry goes way back to childhood. So they're looking for answers for why. So the more detailed your notes are as to why the better that may, you know, that may stop a challenge because they could say, well, there, you know, there's white.

Um, The other thing is, um, uh, joint accounts, make sure that you have the client give clear instructions how they want their joint accounts handled. There's a presumption now since the Supreme court in core in 2007, uh, That there's a presumption of resulting trust where a parent puts an Apple child on a joint asset.

So, um, the court says the presumption is there and it's up to the child to rebut the presumption. You need evidence of the intention of the parent at the time of the transaction. So at least get it in the notes, uh, saying no, you know, if there's this point account joint account, but it's held in trust for my state only deal that dealt with it this way to say probate fees, but, or.

No it's meant to be a gift to my child. Um, what are things, can you do? Um, just to comment is that, uh, in my wheel drafting practice, uh, at least, uh, this year 2020 since covered on everything, I've been doing it over zoom and recording the zoom call and that record that recording. I put as part of the file and I've heard that's great.

Cause you can, uh, show the judge if that sort of comes to, this is the intake process. This is what the client said. You can see it themselves, but. I've also heard that that puts the lawyer a lot at risk because the judge might say, why didn't you ask that? Why didn't you probe that more? So I said, do you have any comments on recording the videos?

Yeah. And that was one of the points. Uh, um, I'm glad you brought that up because that is one of the points that I typically talk about is even before COVID, should you videotape the interview with the client, both the instruction interview and the signing. Meeting. Right. Um, and, uh, I know some lawyers do that.

Uh, I never did. Um, but in my experience, even if it's a, uh, very well done interview and a good video, um, it doesn't necessarily stop a challenge. Once again, if somebody wants to fight, they're going to find something like you said, you didn't ask that, um, or. Um, uh, no, I don't think he really understood what you asked or an, I, I remember once I had a case, it wasn't a lawyer interview was, it was one of the kids interviewed mom voter intentions for the wheel and said, mom, this is what you want to do.

You want to cut out Charlie and Annette and was so obvious that they were bombarding this mom, that the video was actually very helpful to the general ledger, but, but I've seen him even well done. Videos. It's not the it's, it's one piece of the evidence, one piece of the puzzle, but it D it will not a hundred percent stop a challenge now with COVID and these virtual witnessing and wills and doing it over zoom.

And I think we are going to see challenges down the road. Um, you have an elderly test Stater, you know, they're on zoom. How do I mute? Uh, how do I turn on my camera date? Oh, one of the kids there, you know, is in the background, helping them with the technology. Who else, what else is that kid doing in the background?

So I know some lawyers saying now what you should do is hold up to have the client hold up the camera, pan the room to make sure nobody else is in the room, but you know, they could be next door. I think we're going to see litigation over these virtual wills. I know there's talk now about, uh, making this a permanent thing.

It's been extended now to the end of November, I think November 21st, but this is great. We should have, he will get the 21st century and I have mixed feelings about that. I mean, there's definitely pros to it, but I still think that if someone is able to meet with a lawyer in person, that's the best way to do it.

Um, uh, and that's the best control, right. But I wouldn't say don't video. I'm just saying that, um, it, it's not the end all be all. That's all. Yeah, I hear that. So more about a States, a little bit. And the state court. If you will. Um, I'm also licensed in Israel and in Israel, it's so interesting. They don't have much of an estates world there.

So there's a number of reasons. One is they don't have a state administration tax, so there's less issues around the probate over there. And for some reason they don't have much estate litigation there. But if anything it's dealt with by the family law lawyers. So it's, it's a unique beast that we have here in Ontario with the thriving estates by, and also their state's court.

So maybe you can comment on what makes the estates litigation practice unique and including the court, but, uh, other things as well. Right. So it's interesting what you say about family and estate Wars in Israel, sort of. Being the same group. And we do see that here in Ontario as well. I mean, a lot of, uh, family Lords that used to be like filing Lords, Laurie.

She used to have practice. I don't know if they would do criminal law and family law. You don't see that as much now, but when I was a young lawyer, a lot of lawyers did family law, criminal, I guess maybe a husband murders, his wife or son. I don't know. But now. You do see, there is an overlap between family law in the States left, particularly when you get to equalization claims or claims for support and that sort of thing.

So you do come across there's sometimes when I have a case that involves, let's say a support claim, I will often bring in a family more to, to assist me. Uh, because they do that, they do support claims every day and thousands of them. And we, you know, I, you know, I don't do as many as those. So it's sometimes I go work with a family lawyer to, to, to help me with that.

Um, depending on the case, but, and, and, and Toronto, we have the advantage of a dedicated, uh, estates court. It's it's it's it's they call it the estates list. It's it's, it's part of the commercial list in, in Toronto. And it's. About the antivirus of recorded justice. Um, and the advantage is that you have judges who, um, are, are very familiar with the States because they're doing it day in and day out as opposed to other jurisdictions where you'd go to see, uh, the judge and he's just done a murder trial, or she's just done a divorce case or a commercial case.

And now. Uh, you have to educate him because they don't do them. Let's just state work. Um, ironically, I don't know what's happening now. Ironically, the only Toronto, even though you had these judges, they were building up quite a bit of expertise in the state's law. When he came to doing a long trial, they would assign it to a judge on the civil list.

He was not on the estates list. Because they can't afford to have these States judge, you know, do a, do a, do a month long trial. So I said, what's the point of, I think the specialized lists, if you're turning it over to a non-estate judge to do the trial. Um, so it's it's, so it's not really an a state's court.

It's just sort of like a panel of judges and they do rotate them every few months. So they get, uh, some new judges in, um, but it, uh, It's very helpful because you don't have to, uh, educate the judges and, and good judges will be the first one to tell you, say, tell the coin, say, don't look to me for the wall book to your lawyers because they're educating me because a judges has to be a generalist.

They can't be an expert in anything, if everything, right. Uh, I mean, some judges who were criminal lawyers, maybe the unsold they do are criminal cases, but typically, you know, a judge will do all kinds of cases and they, they're not an expert in everything. So they rely on the lawyers to. Present the law accurately and fairly to them, both sides.

Right? So as I commented, uh, at the beginning that your practice has now evolved into mediation Moines, it's funny, you mentioned just six, seven years ago, you evolved into state litigation and it seems like it was no longer than that. I lose track of time. I think it's probably closer to 10, but I think anyway, every decade or decade or so you have a bit of an evolution.

Uh, talk about the mediation. What makes that process so unique? And, uh, I, I hear it's the way of the future that people are trying to avoid court altogether and mediation is really on the uptick. So talk about the benefits and how it's going for you. Yes. So in, in Toronto, uh, Mediation of most estates, disputes is mandatory and Toronto and Ottawa in the, in the Windsor area.

And now there's, there's talk of making it mandatory throughout the province of Ontario. But right now it's not a mandatory everywhere. Although they changed the rules a few years ago that a judges and even jurisdictions where they don't have mandatory mediation can on their own order mediation in the state matter.

So because, uh, you know, practicing, uh, even though my office is just North of Toronto, most of my work is in Toronto, uh, because of the dedicated state's list of preferred to do it there. So, you know, we've been doing mediations now with these States by for many years. Um, and we were probably, you know, very quick to realize that.

Particularly in the estates context, mediation really works. Most cases will get settled at mediation. Um, and, uh, so I was interested in, and I guess as you get some gray hair, you say, well, maybe people start calling me up for advice or asking my opinion. Um, and, uh, and I, and I found that like, I was watching the mediators and they had different styles and mine is more of the facilitator.

Although I will weigh in with my opinion, if parties get stuck at the end of the day. And I said, you know, um, you know, I'm interested in this. So I took a course in 2007, I went down to Harvard, uh, law school and I took, uh, a week long course, um, Uh, immediation a five day course and, uh, really enjoyed it, uh, would have loved to gone to law school at Harvard.

I mean, they, it had a whole building, it was just a library. It was, it was, it was unbelievable. But, um, so I really enjoyed that. And then, um, I came back, I didn't really do too much in terms of, uh, promoting my mediation practice, but the last, uh, I guess for four years, five years, four years, I've been promoting it.

And, uh, and, uh, we're doing some, but they're now, uh, the last couple years really building it up and now with COVID and. The COVID pandemic was probably a real boon to me, just because you can't get a court date and you can't get a trial date, you can't get a hearing date. You got the chief justice Ontario saying, I don't care, mediations mandatory or not do mediations.

You got to sell these cases. We're never going to catch up. And, um, so there's been a tremendous uptick in mediations now because clients want to get their matter settled and, uh, or disposed of. The courts just can't deal with it right now. Um, and they're just so far behind. So, you know, and like I said, and I found for me personally, I just really enjoy it, you know, uh, to be a good mediator.

You've gotta be part psychologist, part social worker. Um, And, you know, I did my undergrad degree in, in psychology and, uh, you know, I thought maybe I'd want to become a psychologist. And, and, um, so, so as you know, as lawyers, so, I mean, we're not there to do counseling, but clients come to us, particularly in the States and they have emotional issues.

And so as a mediator, you have to. You know, learn to really listen. So, uh, I've really worked hard on my listening skills cause I didn't think I was a great listener, great talker, but you know, we have one mouth, two years we're supposed to listen. So mediation, you know, is really improved my listening skills, which I think is then also improved my skills as a, as a, as a lawyer.

Um, you know, you really got to listen to the clients. And what I found was I think one of the most striking things that someone said to me as a mediator. It's a mediation. I did, I guess I think it was late last year. Anyway. Um, one of the clients who really was in the wrong, I mean, they had. Not, they were the attorney for property and they, you know, taking money from the parent for their own use.

And, you know, the, the other sibling was bringing a claim for it and accounting. So, you know, they had to, um, they had to settle the case. They had to come up with quite a bit of money, uh, to pay it back. And, uh, but, and you know, but I wasn't in there. You know, lecturing them or, you know, or saying, you know, you, you know, you stole from your parents and shame on you, how you know, why we even here.

Um, you sort of say, Hey, you know, uh, you know, you took the money and I know you feel maybe you were justified, but I think maybe a court's going to look at it differently. Um, and, but, um, gentle about it. And at the end of the day that that client, uh, I think the lawyer just stepped outside to, to contribute with the other counsel.

And I was sitting there waiting for the lawyer to come back and the client turned to me and said, you know, you're the first person that listened to me. And I think that's what estate litigation is all about is the clients want to be heard. They want to be listened to. And, uh, because they're, they're carrying a lot of emotion, a lot of baggage.

It's not like a business dispute, you know, it's, it's part of their soul. And, and sometimes they just need someone to, to speak to, you know, speak with. And so, um, I enjoy meeting people for the most part. Most of the people I come across in my practice are not a of them, but the vast majority are good people.

And I, and, uh, um, And, um, so it's a good fit for me and that's why I'm trying to, you know, have, you know, full-time intermediation, that's sort of my, my, my goal eventually. Right. That's great. Um, it's, it's, there's a very important place for mediation in our legal system. Can you break it down for someone who's maybe looking to litigate or mediate and they don't know much about the process, uh, explain what it takes to come to a successful mediation and include each party has to hire their own lawyer and their lawyer submit mediation briefs.

And what happens from there? All right. So. Just to touch on your first point, litigate or mediate. Um, uh, sometimes, uh, in most cases, litigation is commenced, um, before the parties mediate, they're in the midst of the proceeding, but not always, but most of the time. And, and I always feel that the sooner you can get to mediation, the better, because litigation's extremely expensive.

Uh, both financially and emotionally. Um, but the odds are the case is going to settle anyway. I mean, 95% of these cases, maybe even harder settle, do not go to trial. Why people run out of steam and more. And so they run out of money. Um, so, but so getting to mediation sooner than later. Yeah, it's better because you're going to save costs if you settle.

So the further along you go down the path, In the litigation process. Like you go through cross-examinations discoveries, the more money you have invested in the case, the more entrenched the parties come in their positions and it makes it more difficult to settle. So usually, um, uh, counseling, the clients already have counsel because litigation has been commenced, but, uh, I typically will.

We mediate. I haven't done any mediations where the party was self-represented so usually they'll have the lawyers and the lawyers year, right. We'll submit briefs, um, in which they set out their position in the, in the key facts and sometimes some of the law. And, but it's not the same thing as preparing a brief for court where you're arguing.

I mean, Well, as a mediator, I'm not making a decision. I'm there to facilitate a discussion. You don't have to convince me about anything. I have to convince you both sides to keep talking. I'm not going to, I'm not, not that I'm doing an arbitration. We can talk about that later. I mean, doing mediation is.

If you're not happy party, you can read, I can't keep you here. And at the end of the day, you don't settle. It's like it never happened. It's totally off the record. So at the mediation, we'll start off typically with a meeting, if we can, with everybody in the room together. Um, in the earlier days of mediation, the mediator would call on the lawyers to make, uh, an opening statement.

Uh, I don't do that and I haven't seen it done. Even the mediations we're involved as counsel for the longest time, because I don't think it's particularly helpful. You know, it's not court, you're not making an opening statement to a jury. Okay. Everyone's read the brief. Everybody knows what the case is about.

So what I will do is I'll, I'll ask the clients and say, this is your day. Nevermind the lawyers, this is your day. Um, what do you have to say to your brother or your sister? And sometimes it's a little risky, um, because you know, so you sense it's going off the rails, you say, okay. Enough of that. Um, we're uh, but typically it's a very short meeting where I talk about the process.

What mediation is that it's a confidential off the record. It's your opportunity today to stop the bleeding financially, to end this again on with your life, stop the bleeding emotionally. It's all private. Go to court and there's a decision. One of you is going to lose. It's going to be all over the internet forever.

You want your dirty laundry over the internet. Um, I said you don't and nobody's going to tell you what a judge is going to do. If anyone tells you that you're going to win your case a hundred percent run. Cause nobody can tell you that. And you can ask your lawyers. We've all had cases that we thought were sure, winners and we lose, we'll be fed cases that we thought were short losers and we win or, you know, or emotions or whatever.

Um, and so I set the stage and I also say, and you know, mediation really works 95 plus percent, or somethings from sequel say, hire these cases, settle at mediation. So I'm already setting the mood, the expectation. And I said, but you have to be prepared. To make serious compromise, painful, compromise. If, if you say I'm not going to bunch and I'm not going to bunch, I said, don't waste your time.

Don't waste your money. Goodbye. I said, you here today because you want to settle your dispute and get on with your life. And sometimes if it's over a wheel or something, it might say, mention your parents here in the room with us. What do you think your parents would want to see happen here? You know, it's sometimes it's the Kleenex comes out.

You know, it's a very emotional thing. It's a cathartic process. Um, and, uh, And nothing gives me more pleasure than at the end of the day. And hopefully it's not too late in the night. Cause sometimes it'll cook well into the evening, but hopefully the end of the day, I always say, nobody's going to be thrilled.

If you reach a summary, you're both going to be somewhat unhappy, but that's a fair settlement. You go to court. One of you is going to be really unhappy when you get the order to pay costs of, you know, the other side. So plus your own lawyers. So, uh, so that's what happens to Lisa, my mediations, um, and, uh, You know, it's been going pretty well.

I really enjoy it. And there doesn't seem to be any shortage of estate just right now, I'm focusing on a state disputes because I don't feel comfortable doing, let's say personal entry. Cause it's, I haven't kept up with the law, but I used to do wrongful dismissal law early on. So I could do you know those eventually I plan to branch out into some other areas.

That I feel comfortable in that aren't too technical, but, uh, right now I'm focusing on States. Yeah. That's, that's interesting. I love the, uh, reconciliation approach that you take also studied psychology and thought about being a psychologist. And I think mediation is the closest thing to that. Really trying to help people overcome their issues and choirs are legal, but like you said, because it's not binding, it's just really, they're trying to help people.

You're not there to enforce any decision one way or another. Um, so there's an important place for it. And I think that it's definitely a growing trend in is to try to mediate as much as possible. Um, you go back to the early part in your career. If we can just change chronologically a little bit and looking at where you are right now, successful lawyer, boutique firm mediator.

Is there anything you'd like to maybe tell your younger self, your younger lawyer self or. Um, you know, do you have any regrets about the journey that you took, maybe, um, advice to younger lawyers? Where, where do you want to take that? Um, regrets? Um,

that's a that's that's a good question. Um, I guess the advice I'd give to. Younger lawyers is I guess, one of the grants. So I had is that working in small firms, although I mentioned Ben Sischy, I didn't have as much of the opportunity. Um, To have like, uh, a mentor to sort of guide me along. I sort of was figuring it out stuff for myself, which made it, uh, more difficult.

So what I think I would encourage young lawyers is get yourself a mentor or to, um, a senior lawyer, um, go for coffee. Um, go observe them in court or see if you can sit on a mediation or on a discovery because let's face it. We get out of law school. You know, and you get called a boring and you're, you know, I mean, I don't know what they teach in med school, but if med school was like law school, I wouldn't want that doctor going anywhere near me.

Cause we come out. We don't know anything about the practice of law. We don't even know how to open a file. We don't know anything about the business of law. Uh, so I got myself a book. I forget the name of, there was a book about how to start your own, build your own law practice. I think it's probably several additions all now.

So I read that that was helpful. So for get yourself a mentor, um, and. Read as much as you can about the subject area. You're interested in go to as many courses you can. It's very different. Now what I'm finding with the young lawyers coming out. Now, what I'm really impressed about is man, they're bright and they're confident and they're savvy.

And I wasn't like that when I came out, I didn't know what I was doing. And maybe, maybe I was, but I just sensed that the youngest had come out now. Um, They seem to have a lot more guts and a lot of drive and that you'll, you'll see a lot of them, I guess, out of necessity or starting their own practices or associating with other lawyers.

One thing that the, the younger lawyers have over the. My generation is that we didn't have social media or network. Now with Facebook, with LinkedIn, with blogging and podcasts, like you can get your name out there and the public might think you're a huge firm. They don't know because it's how you present yourself, how you, how you, how your website is.

So marketing is very important. And, uh, I think networking is very important. So like hang out with lawyers, um, and it, because that's how you can get referrals that so, you know, you can learn. Um, and, uh, always, you know, if you're having a bad day and the phone's not ringing and you have an open up a file for, for two weeks, remember that it's going to get better.

Okay. I got to tell you there's there was some times during my practice, like I said, I'm sitting here, like, what the heck am I doing? Waiting for the phone to ring? And, uh, it was a little scary, but I survived and, you know, and built up a practice of good practice. So. Yeah, I think that every lawyer wants it can, that can happen.

It's hard work is especially, you know, long hours in the beginning, but now I think you, you have to spend a lot of time focusing on marketing and networking because there's a lot of competition out there and you have to sort of, you know, stand out or as, as my coach, uh, Sue feat wrote a book called. Step into the spotlight, you know, so I work with a coach and that's another thing.

Um, get yourself a mentor, get yourself a coach who can sort of look at what you're doing and give you tips on how you can maybe improve, um, uh, you know, w what you're doing. That's really great advice and so much to unpack there, but as a fellow, a boutique lawyer, if you will, you, you, you know, you must have learned a lot from your marketing experience.

I wasn't planning on asking you this in particular, but are there any takeaways from marketing? Um, I mentioned your book at the beginning, which is a really unbelievable book. Um, is there a purpose behind that or the other marketing that you do and does one thing you have found to work better than others?

Um, yeah, the book was, uh, I think the book was something that I always sort of wanted to, to write something in my book is more geared toward the late person as to the professional, though, a lot of lawyers and I've got the book and told me they find it helpful because I was just seeing the same things coming up and up and over again in my practice.

And I thought I'd read about it. Um, but it, there's no question that, uh, having a book out there and saying you've written a book does give you credibility. It has helped the marketing. Um, I was interested in getting more mediations and I don't know if it's bad or it's just the old fashioned word of melody, which I still think is still the best marketing.

Uh, but you know, get me a speaking engagements and that sort of thing. So, um, marketing, um, Is very important. Like I set aside, uh, I try to set aside at least one day a week. Uh, like Friday where we're recording this on a Friday where it's my marketing admin date. I don't have client meetings. Okay. Because writing blogs, um, trying to get speaking engagements, set the bar association conferences or loss, Sonic conferences, anything you can get your to get your name and reputation out there.

Um, you know, there's some lawyers that build a reputation as a great trial lawyer, but for the most. Litigators. You're not going to be doing all that many trials, because like I said, especially in the estates context, a lot of stuff gets sales. So if you're a criminal lawyer, like early in my career, I really enjoy criminal law because you got to go to court, you know, you're going to get into court.

And so that's one way to build your reputation by winning cases. But you can also build a reputation by people seeing that, you know what you're talking about, you know, your area. So I see this young lawyers doing now. They have blogs and, and, uh, they're, they're getting involved with the bar association, um, uh, committees and to get invited to speak.

Um, and you know, when you speak, hundreds of lawyers are hearing you and they get to know your names, that OES that, you know, you know, that person here, she had a good, I think I, I might want to call them for a referral. So, um, it's tough, but you certainly can get your reputation growing. What more quickly now than I did early in my career, because you can reach millions of people.

Um, a lot of my clients, um, I'd say the vast majority of them now. I mean, some are for referrals, but the vast majority of are finding me on the internet. And I find when they meet with me, they know more about me than I do, because they've, they've read my website, they read articles, they've seen videos. I don't.

They said, Oh yeah, you, you, you wrote that. I did. Oh yeah. You know, so. Um, so the online presence now is very important, right? Uh, yeah, super fascinating. And, um, I've heard recently from another sole practitioner or boutique lawyer that. Um, they've not marketed it at all to other lawyers and speaking engagements with the OBA.

They focus on market marketing to clients going to the source. Um, Messiah. I haven't quite figured that out yet. Um, but it's an interesting angle, which you have to, well, yeah, I should, I should maybe amend that what I said a little bit. Um, I think when I was, you know, when I was doing like drafting and solicitors work, then I had a different audience say my audience was the accountants, the financial planners.

Uh, so yeah, so I think that's a very good point. So what do you. Want to do is you want to see who who's your audience, who's, who's your source of referrals and that's who you want to target. So if you're trying to build up a will practice, then you want to talk to that demographic. Right? So I, uh, you know, talk to some senior homeless or retirement communities, talk to accountants because they're dealing with clients and they're going to say, Hey, you need a little financial planners.

So. Now I focus more on lawyers because my source of business, elder mediations is lawyers, right. Or, or litigation is solicitor sending me work. But yeah, you have to define who your target is. So you're right. Um, speaking to the bar association may not be right for you if, if you're trying to build up, uh, you know, immigration law practice or whatever, you're going to say, where, where do I think my clients are going to come from?

But having said that, um, The internet is very important. Social media is extremely important. And, uh, and I think you have to watch what people are saying about you too. So. Absolutely all very good points. And, uh, it's about tweaking until you find the right angle. And there's a lot of thought that needs to go into it.

So I completely agree. Thank you for those comments. Um, I'll have one last question before I let you go. We'll usually get a bit caught up with it. So, uh, uh, take your time and that is. Do you have a favorite quote or saying, or adage that you live by, if you will, and if you don't, do you have any favorite books perhaps that have influenced your life and your thinking?

Okay. Uh, quotes. Um,

so I, I, I was going to think like if I had a motto. Um, you know, w it was always, like, I always tell people, um, um, you know, keep on rocking, you know, cause you know, I, I play in my passion is music. So, so I'm in abandon. I'm a lawyer by day. Want to be rock star at night. But, uh, so I always say keep on rocking, but I also have to just keep moving and actually, um, I came across a quote by Albert Einstein.

And it was sort of, you know, it was a lot more eloquent with then keep on rocking or keep moving. He said, you know, life is like riding a bicycle to keep your balance. You have to keep moving. And I thought that was a great quote. Um, and so, you know, keep moving, be kind, I didn't know, there's enjoy what you do and if it's not fun, find something else because, um, You know, uh, money's not everything.

And, uh, and there's, if you're not happy with what you're doing in the, after practicing for many years, you know, you may have a regret. Although I think law, as I always tell people, laws and education is great, whether you practice law or not. I loved that. That was the favorite part of my previous law school.

Um, in terms of, um, hi, I'd like anything. I remember anything by Kurt Vonnegut, um, uh, you know, like cat's cradle or God bless you, mr. Rosewater. I think it was in God. Bless you, mr. Rosewater. There was a, I forget the character, but there's, I think a father talking to a son and he says, son, one day, a lot of money is going to change hands, make sure you're in the middle.

And I said, no, no, that's probably for a lawyer. Um, what if I'd been reading recently? Um, So, yeah, the other thing is like, I used to read mostly lonely lost stuff, like lost. Like then you have to read a lot of stuff, but you know, get away from the loss of something right now. So what am I reading now? I heard you paint houses.

You painted houses. Y'all jump, you know, this one with the Jimmy Hoffa book, but Netflix made a movie, but Frank Sheeran the guy who killed Jimmy Hoffa. So I'm reading, finishing that now. Um, I'd like, uh, I'd like, uh, historical, uh, biographies. So, um, I, I, um, uh, well, I didn't see Hamilton, but I read Ron Chernow's book on Hamilton, which was fascinating.

I was supposed to see Hamilton, but then COVID canceled the performance. Um, and so Ron, Chernow's written some great books. I read one on useless S grant. Which is a fascinating biography of private prison in grant. Uh, and I just read, he wrote a book about the family called the Warburgs, which was a Jewish family.

And going back to the 16 or 17 hundreds in Germany, bankers and how they had to flee Nazi Germany, and they sort of re established themselves after the war and, uh, A lot of stuff. Um, book that I used to go to back and forth back to quite often, it was an old book on cross-examination club. The art of cross-examination by Francis moment.

It's sluggish, it's an old book, but it's like a classic. I want to look at that one as well. And, uh, That's all I can think of right now. Fantastic. Well, thank you, Charles. You've been great. So much wisdom and experience that you've shared with us today. Uh, I loved your last comment. It reminded me of my LLM.

My master's of law was at Hebrew university and right in the middle of the campus there they have, what do you know, Albert Einstein riding on a bicycle. Exactly, like you said in structure. So, um, I'll leave you the last word, but I love the fact that you just got to keep on moving, moving, because if not, you'll get swept away.

So, um, any last words before we let you go? Um, well, first of all, I wanted to thank you for having me on your podcast. It was a lot of fun and, uh, I didn't know, like when you said we were going to talk about an hour, I said, how am I going to talk my now? And then I look like. There was like, you know, um, it goes so quick.

Wait, so thank you for that. And, uh, and I, I guess, um, if anyone hopefully is going to listen to this or watch it is, I hope I had something good of useful of use for them to take away. Um, but the one point I, I, I tell, cause I do meet with young warriors for conflict from time to time. Is. You know, enjoy what you're doing and you have to have a balance between work and your personal life.

And that's a bit of a challenge now with COVID with somebody else working from home, right. There's this temptation to it's so easy because your office is right there. Right. You've got to. We've got to find time for yourself and your family. Uh, and because at the end of the day, that's the most important thing, right?

We're humans at the end of the day and the lessons that you've shared with us today, the importance of listening, for example, in your litigation and mediation practice, I was just thinking that's how to be a good human at the end of the day, a good spouse, a good parent or whatever the case may be is you've got to listen.

And these lessons you've shared with us, uh, apply it not only as a lawyer, but all aspects of our life. So yeah. Again, thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. I look forward to staying in touch and seeing you on the next one. Take care. Bye for now. Bye.