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Ian Hull, thank you so much for joining me. 
00:00:02 Avi Charney 
You're a real leader in the states bar. 
00:00:04 Avi Charney 
I've been following you for years and without your contribution to the state community, I think we'd all be in a worse off position. 
00:00:12 Avi Charney 
You were called to the bar in 1990 and you founded Hull and Hull in 1998, and it's since grown to really. 
00:00:20 Avi Charney 
The leaning firm estate firm. 
00:00:22 Avi Charney 
I think in Ontario so much so there's Facebook groups with the states lawyers and people ask questions there and people bring in different sources and I would say the blogs from Holland Halland. 
00:00:36 Avi Charney 
How have the weight of almost statutes, people post them and that really ends the conversation? 
00:00:42 Avi Charney 
So there's there's that there's the output that you give and the teaching. 
00:00:46 Avi Charney 
I also try my best to attend your weekly classes on Thursday. 
00:00:50 Avi Charney 
And there's also, uh, I end them. 
00:00:52 Avi Charney 
Obviously with some knowledge gained better feeling over there. 
00:00:56 Avi Charney 
So much more, I wish I could hear and learn from you and you know it brings me back. 
00:01:00 Avi Charney 
Every every week, so to speak. 
00:01:02 Avi Charney 
And again, the the mentorship that you give the younger lawyers is really unparalleled in their state community. 
00:01:10 Avi Charney 
Just a personal background, I like to ask is how you came to study law and you know what happened before your call in 1990. What really prompted you to? 
00:01:21 Avi Charney 
Pursue this career. 
00:01:23 Ian Hull 
Well, thank you for all those kind remarks and it's a real pleasure to be here and thank you for having me. 
00:01:28 Ian Hull 
Uh, what really I I started to pursue the idea of getting into law was I was a history major and I went to Western and enjoyed history, but I wasn't sure that I could. 
00:01:43 Ian Hull 
Take that on as a career choice. 
00:01:45 Ian Hull 
I had a father who I'm one of five kids. 
00:01:47 Ian Hull 
Had a father who was a lawyer and that none of us were all that interested in law throughout growing up, but I sort of morphed into it and, and like many of us unfortunately at the end of your first degree, you sort of look around and you wonder what am I going to do next? 
00:02:01 Ian Hull 
And law was. 
00:02:02 Ian Hull 
An option and I was lucky enough to get into law school and never look back. 
00:02:07 Avi Charney 
And then what did you do after law school? I mean regarding articles and you called to the bar in 1990 from 1990 to 1998? What kind of experiences did? 
00:02:16 Avi Charney 
We have 
00:02:17 Ian Hull 
Sure, so I I. 
00:02:19 Ian Hull 
I first had great opportunity I. 
00:02:22 Ian Hull 
My first job was two years working at a firm called Koskie. 
00:02:25 Ian Hull 
Minsky worked in the construction litigation department and did commercial litigation work. 
00:02:31 Ian Hull 
Really got exposure to the world of litigation. 
00:02:35 Ian Hull 
I would say a rough and tumble. 
00:02:37 Ian Hull 
World the Constructionline work is not for the faint of heart. 
00:02:40 Ian Hull 
You're constantly counting the number of days to make sure you haven't missed a lean period, and it's pretty high stress work. 
00:02:47 Ian Hull 
But having said that, I worked there for two years and then my father was counsel at a firm in downtown Toronto doing estate work, and he'd been doing it since the 50s, but. 
00:02:56 Ian Hull 
I I thought, you know, I I enjoyed the litigation and he was on his own and was uh came to me and said, look, you know, why don't you come work for me after two years of litigation experience, I realized I wanted to stay litigating and what a great opportunity to work with my dad. So in 92. 
00:03:16 Ian Hull 
I started working with my dad and till he passed away so I had almost 20 years worked here with my dad day in and day out enjoying. 
00:03:26 Ian Hull 
You know just the the learning that I got and received from him was is pretty special. 
00:03:31 Ian Hull 
I mean a father son is pretty neat and I got an opportunity to learn that from a different. 
00:03:37 Ian Hull 
Lens, but it was fantastic. 
00:03:41 Avi Charney 
That's that's really. 
00:03:42 Avi Charney 
Incredible the the importance of mentorship, so to speak. 
00:03:45 Avi Charney 
I I must just say that my intro remarks were very abbreviated. 
00:03:49 Avi Charney 
You've you're an author of many books, and I mean when I was doing my rounds with the different states law firms. 
00:03:57 Avi Charney 
In Toronto, I discovered that in one way or another they all originated from Hull and Hull. 
00:04:02 Avi Charney 
So what what's your feeling about that? 
00:04:07 
Well, you know. 
00:04:08 Ian Hull 
I I I'm very I'm very proud of our firm, but but I'm also proud of those who want to do what they want to do. 
00:04:15 Ian Hull 
And you know, I I was lucky enough to work with my dad and work up a practice area in a boutique environment and and thrive and enjoy my work every day so. 
00:04:26 Ian Hull 
Although I love all the people I work with, I also appreciate and respect people who want to try different opportunities in different entrepreneurial aspects of the law. 
00:04:36 Ian Hull 
So yeah, we've had some. 
00:04:38 Ian Hull 
We've had some great opportunities to work with people who have then gone on to create their own firms and and yet you know we have saw some real long term lawyers with us too that I've worked with. 
00:04:50 Ian Hull 
I one of the lawyers I worked with I worked with back in the Koskie Minsky dates, so we've got a long history within the firm and also. 
00:04:59 Ian Hull 
Growth around the firm. 
00:05:01 Speaker 1 
Right? 
00:05:01 Avi Charney 
It's really incredible, and I mean people who spent time at Helen Hall are known to really be experts in a way. 
00:05:08 Avi Charney 
So can you talk about the importance of mentorship? 
00:05:10 Avi Charney 
You mentioned your father mentoring you and also mentorship the younger generation of lawyers. 
00:05:15 Avi Charney 
Now that you're a mentor yourself. 
00:05:17 Ian Hull 
Yeah, well, you know. 
00:05:18 Ian Hull 
It's it's true I I. 
00:05:20 Ian Hull 
I got mentored by a very special person in my world of course. 
00:05:24 Ian Hull 
And you know he he started off I I was lucky. 
00:05:27 Ian Hull 
I mean it wasn't there wasn't the economic pressures because when we first started he had lots of work and passed on lots of it to me. 
00:05:36 Ian Hull 
But but also expected. 
00:05:37 Ian Hull 
Me to be asking him questions basically said to me in the first two years. 
00:05:42 Ian Hull 
Don't talk in a meeting and listen and. 
00:05:44 Ian Hull 
Learn and and and you know we leave the meeting and we'd have great discussions. 
00:05:48 Ian Hull 
I I I used to drive him to and from work and not not because I wanted to work those hours which we had great hours, but I had young kids and I we talked the whole way there and back and and that was, you know, little things like that. 
00:06:00 Ian Hull 
But I use that as an illustration because mentoring people who have the. 
00:06:05 Ian Hull 
Experience and the knowledge I always say to people you know. 
00:06:08 Ian Hull 
Look for opportunities. 
00:06:10 Ian Hull 
To soak the information out of them instead of just the conventional nine to five period of time when people are frantic on phone calls and meetings and so on. 
00:06:18 Ian Hull 
Maybe pick an opportunity like that. 
00:06:20 Ian Hull 
I mean, obviously driving your your dad back and forth to work doesn't work for everyone, but it's it's. 
00:06:26 Ian Hull 
It's one of those things that the mentorship people like. 
00:06:30 Ian Hull 
Well, like you as at I do we like people we like working with people and we love giving, mentoring guidance. 
00:06:35 Ian Hull 
If we're, if if asked. 
00:06:37 Ian Hull 
Uh, it's just a question of finding the time and energy and sometimes, but mentoring is such a profound part of the law that for me anyway, what what good is it to me to just sit down and put my head down and act for clients and quietly come home at night and say hi to my kids, and none of which know anything about what I did in the day? 
00:06:59 Ian Hull 
It's so much more rewarding when you get to turn that around and and work with people and then the collaboration and the last outside about mentoring is is that I learned something new every single time I mentor someone because better ideas come from collaboration. 
00:07:14 Ian Hull 
And so I I. 
00:07:15 Ian Hull 
You know it's funny. 
00:07:16 Ian Hull 
Mentoring always is perceived to be a one way St and it's. 
00:07:19 Ian Hull 
It's just not. 
00:07:20 Ian Hull 
I mean for me literally I, I you know, and I and I even used to go so far as you know that the exchanges with clients like I'll have say this is what we're thinking of doing. 
00:07:28 Ian Hull 
You know, I was on a call last night and my client said, well, what about this and I said, you know what? 
00:07:31 Ian Hull 
That's a great idea and and I and I needed that sort of feedback I. 
00:07:35 Ian Hull 
I think the direction was in the right direction. 
00:07:37 Ian Hull 
I I I was confident with my advice and then there was. 
00:07:41 Ian Hull 
A twist well. 
00:07:41 Ian Hull 
That's from a client level. 
00:07:42 Ian Hull 
Well, you learn so much more and can gain so much better insight. 
00:07:48 Ian Hull 
If you're collaborating, and so I think the term mentoring is 21 way I I like to collaborate. 
00:07:55 
Very nice. 
00:07:56 Avi Charney 
So I mean, you and I, I guess your partner Jordy are great mentors. 
00:08:02 Avi Charney 
You know so much contribution to the the younger community. 
00:08:06 Avi Charney 
And I mean when talking to his state lawyers, the public doesn't necessarily know that his state is divided up into at least three main categories, maybe more, but you got the litigation. 
00:08:16 Avi Charney 
The planning and the administration I I kind of. 
00:08:19 Avi Charney 
Hang out in the latter two of those and and you're one of the rare people who are considered experts, even a certified specialist in the states law. 
00:08:28 Avi Charney 
But the experts in all three of those, how do you straddle those three? 
00:08:34 Avi Charney 
And I know litigation is the main part, but you know, I want to talk about everything such a broad. 
00:08:41 Ian Hull 
Well, you know it's a. 
00:08:42 Ian Hull 
It's a. 
00:08:42 Ian Hull 
It's an interesting question and one that you know we're lucky enough to get into a specialized area and you and I both live and breathe that. 
00:08:49 Ian Hull 
That kind of a practice, but you know, I learned early on that that to do any one part of the area of practice, it's better to have a deep understanding of the other aspects of it. 
00:09:00 Ian Hull 
So I don't draw as many. 
00:09:01 Ian Hull 
Wells as I used to personally, but I was drawing wheels earlier in my career so I knew about that feeling of intake and I knew about the feelings of what clients are going through. 
00:09:10 Ian Hull 
I knew about what the lawyer should be or shouldn't be in my mind to doing an intake center. 
00:09:17 Ian Hull 
And and then I can impart that into a contentious situation where you know sometimes I find state litigators, in particular, they get very judgy about the solicitor side work because they're just looking at it from a critical standpoint after the fact, and it's always 2020 hindsight. Well, so I I spent a lot of time early in my career learning. 
00:09:37 Ian Hull 
How to run in a state administration. 
00:09:39 Ian Hull 
How to take it? 
00:09:39 Ian Hull 
Do wills and how to run a lawsuit that that was contentious and by doing that obviously heavily weighted toward the the litigation and my personal practice, I was exposed to all aspects and it and it just you know, the area isn't that. 
00:09:55 Ian Hull 
Big that you can't at least see some of that exposure, but how important is it to? 
00:10:00 Ian Hull 
In my view, it's so important to be sitting across the table from someone. 
00:10:04 Ian Hull 
If you're litigating over them, knowing you know what I did a will where I cut a kid out and I knew what I did in that situation and I can judge the behavior like a judge is going to be judging that behavior. 
00:10:15 Ian Hull 
So that's part of the reason why I focused so broadly, and I think it's in my view, my own personal view is it's a mistake to eliminate any aspect of the estate's bar work too, from your practice. If you can avoid it, but look. 
00:10:30 Ian Hull 
Jordy is a classic. 
00:10:31 Ian Hull 
He he put his gowns down and he's not going into court anymore. 
00:10:35 Ian Hull 
And that's that's great. 
00:10:38 Ian Hull 
But he was running in doing a few contested passive accounts, doing some of the stuff where you dust the gown off just to get a sense of how the judge is going to manage things. 
00:10:47 Ian Hull 
So it may not work for everyone, and some people are in firms. 
00:10:51 Ian Hull 
Or they have exclusively have to stay within their very small box, but that's where I turn around to go to continually legal education. 
00:10:59 Ian Hull 
And I at our firm, I say to people, I want you to go to solicitors seminars. 
00:11:03 Ian Hull 
I don't want to hear about state litigation seminars, those seminars. 
00:11:08 Ian Hull 
We can have them at breakfast. 
00:11:09 Ian Hull 
And I mean, I'm overstating it. 
00:11:11 Ian Hull 
Obviously some of them are fantastic, but I want you to go and hear about what's what's in a state administration. 
00:11:16 Ian Hull 
Do now what? 
00:11:17 Ian Hull 
What do you take? 
00:11:18 Ian Hull 
What efforts take to do in a state administration, just to give yourself enough information to guide your practice? 
00:11:26 Avi Charney 
So yeah, I'm I'm. 
00:11:27 Avi Charney 
I'm on the planning side more, but I try to understand as much as I can from the litigation side as well, like. 
00:11:33 Avi Charney 
Yeah, so and it's funny as I would consider myself a relatively younger lawyer and one of call it. 
00:11:40 Avi Charney 
My referral sources are more senior estates lawyers that decide that they don't want to do, let's say blended families or cutting out a kid like you mentioned and you know, on the one hand, there's access to justice. 
00:11:52 Avi Charney 
Everybody needs a. 
00:11:54 Avi Charney 
Wills and Estates lawyer, but on the other hand, certain people just decline to act under for certain people certain circumstances. 
00:12:01 Avi Charney 
So I mean two questions based on that, is there any advice about just blanket Lee avoiding certain cases certain people? 
00:12:09 Avi Charney 
And why do these like am I getting tripped up by taking on certain files? 
00:12:14 Avi Charney 
Blended families, let's say or, is that a justified policy to reject certain cases? 
00:12:21 Ian Hull 
Well, I I think that's a. 
00:12:23 Ian Hull 
It's a really, really good question, because you know the access to justice element of it is so important it's getting more and more important. 
00:12:29 Ian Hull 
Certainly outside the GTA, especially where even getting access to a lawyer to do a simple. 
00:12:36 Ian Hull 
I'm not simple. 
00:12:36 Ian Hull 
I never use the word simple will, but to do a will. 
00:12:39 Ian Hull 
Uh is is becoming problematic. 
00:12:42 Ian Hull 
I would say this first of all, obviously personal lifestyle choices prevail and people want to keep their workload as they see fit and they don't want to be at night worrying about everything and but but you know, I, I don't like when I first started practicing, I took in, you know, small estates stuff that was going to be hard grinding. 
00:13:02 Ian Hull 
And my dad would always say to me, look, you don't get these files. 
00:13:05 Ian Hull 
'cause of the easy ones. 
00:13:06 Ian Hull 
The easy ones are out there and they're getting done, and they're not getting referred out because they're easy. 
00:13:11 Ian Hull 
And and so you know, I chose a path of grinding through some of those more difficult ones. 
00:13:18 Ian Hull 
But boy, do you learn and and you're interesting to say to you. 
00:13:21 Ian Hull 
You know you know, is it justified? 
00:13:23 Ian Hull 
Well, of course it's justified to to to say no to someone. 
00:13:26 Ian Hull 
That's your own personal practice choice. 
00:13:28 Ian Hull 
But but how much you'll learn when you get into a complex? 
00:13:33 Ian Hull 
Even not even just asset wise but just a complex family relationships planning situation is stuff that you know is is knowledge that you can hang onto forever. 
00:13:43 Ian Hull 
But it also is what we get like like we, you know you call it. 
00:13:46 Ian Hull 
You've got a Spidey sense. 
00:13:48 Ian Hull 
Well, the Spidey sense comes from the fact that, yeah, I've done seven or eight of these, and I saw where the bobbing and weaving. 
00:13:53 Ian Hull 
Needed to be done so you know I'm more of the view of just saying look it's you know take go to people if you need help ask around get the assistance you need to get through it but you know saying no is. 
00:14:09 Ian Hull 
You know from a business model standpoint, if you're referring lawyer and you're sending a file out, you don't want to hear about it again, you want it to, but you don't want it to bounce back. 
00:14:19 Ian Hull 
And so when I get a file, it's and I'm obviously going to take it. 
00:14:23 Ian Hull 
Then I'd say yes and and and. 
00:14:25 Ian Hull 
Then you take the good and the bad with that and and if it takes. 
00:14:29 Ian Hull 
Little bit of extra effort or a learning curve on a new area. 
00:14:32 Ian Hull 
I gotta do it. 
00:14:34 Ian Hull 
I gotta roll my sleeves up and learn it. 
00:14:37 Avi Charney 
So a kind of continuation of that train of thought. 
00:14:41 Avi Charney 
That question is no matter how good a planning lawyer is and how you know diligent, they they do and they ask the right questions. 
00:14:49 Avi Charney 
Is there any foolproof way to avoid litigation, or is it just certain circumstances? 
00:14:55 Avi Charney 
You know the world is? 
00:14:56 Avi Charney 
Going to be challenged. 
00:14:58 Ian Hull 
Yeah, you know, I I. 
00:15:01 Ian Hull 
There really, of course there isn't in a sense that you know the problem is, you know. 
00:15:07 Ian Hull 
When I I'm I'm an old man now, but but you know, I'm almost 60 years old. 
00:15:11 Ian Hull 
And and when I first started practicing you would be into a wheel challenge. 
00:15:14 Ian Hull 
It had the conventional 5 fraud. 
00:15:16 Ian Hull 
Likely that testamentary capacity, undue influence and so on. 
00:15:20 Ian Hull 
Those would be the core challenges. 
00:15:22 Ian Hull 
Now they're probably 15 twists and turns and proprietary estoppel and and not all of it is fine. 
00:15:29 Ian Hull 
It's all good and it brings with it. You know it's it's come from different jurisdictions. the US, and in particular you know UK brought in proprietary estoppel in terms of broader. 
00:15:40 Ian Hull 
Forward reserve as a as a type of claim. 
00:15:44 Ian Hull 
So I I would say this that you know from my perspective I also you know, I always say no one. 
00:15:49 Ian Hull 
I know I don't know it, so if I'm going to get myself into a scenario of the law that I just simply can't support or I don't have people around me to support, I'll walk away from it or I'll make sure I bring in the right team to do it, but. 
00:16:02 Ian Hull 
You know, from my perspective anyway, I think a practice of law is is extremely complex, but the substantive elements of an estate practice are manageable, and that's why I've enjoyed it so much. 
00:16:17 Ian Hull 
All my career. 
00:16:19 Avi Charney 
So I mean about the work you do. 
00:16:21 Avi Charney 
There's there's so much that goes into it, but you're dealing with very intense emotions from both sides. 
00:16:27 Avi Charney 
Sibling again, emotions that emerge in these disputes. 
00:16:34 Avi Charney 
Is there any tip to keep yourself somewhat detached and not involved? 
00:16:38 Avi Charney 
Personally, in these cases. 
00:16:42 Ian Hull 
Yeah, it's a tough one because first of all, uh, you know, I'm empathetic to these cases. And and I've, and I've done this for now 31 years, and I'd probably like to think I've heard a lot of the stories, but I haven't heard them all and every day I'll hear when I go. Whoa, hadn't seen. 
00:16:59 Ian Hull 
Someone do that. 
00:17:00 Ian Hull 
Before but so. 
00:17:02 Ian Hull 
Uh, I think I. 
00:17:04 Ian Hull 
Think to that extent that there there is a a way to manage it, I mean. 
00:17:10 Ian Hull 
You carry the burdens on your shoulders of the clients, and that's just the reality. 
00:17:14 Ian Hull 
When they come to see you. 
00:17:15 Ian Hull 
Certainly in a contentious litigation environment. 
00:17:18 Ian Hull 
So is there. 
00:17:19 Ian Hull 
You know you. 
00:17:20 Ian Hull 
You add that to your shoulders. 
00:17:22 Ian Hull 
How I manage it personally is I try to be patient. 
00:17:29 Ian Hull 
And I try to let like anything. 
00:17:31 Ian Hull 
I'll let it cycle a little bit, even if it's a you know, it's right after the death of a loved one, that the emotions are going to be higher and I assess that in that context. 
00:17:41 Ian Hull 
If I'm on a call with the client and. 
00:17:42 Ian Hull 
Things get heated or. 
00:17:43 Ian Hull 
Get involved, you know, emotional on the call. 
00:17:46 Ian Hull 
I'd like to let it run its course a little bit and talk it through a little bit therapeutic in a way. 
00:17:52 Ian Hull 
Spending the time with the client working it through because you know the truth is you. 
00:17:58 Ian Hull 
You can't feel what they're feeling, but you can at least manage your behavior in what can be a hotly emotional, threatening time for both you and your client. 
00:18:12 Ian Hull 
And and so I I just keep trying to be as patient as I can and patience has really been what succeeded in keeping the temperature down on these hotly contested situations. 
00:18:24 Ian Hull 
But do you take some of this stuff? 
00:18:25 Ian Hull 
Personally, it's you know I'd be. 
00:18:27 Ian Hull 
I'd be I'd be untruthful to say that I don't sometimes get a little personally involved in files. 
00:18:33 Ian Hull 
Of course you do, you you, you learn to, you know, enjoy your clients, you you you like them so very much. 
00:18:39 Ian Hull 
Sometimes I mean I've got long term clients even in mitigation, but a non litigation that you know they're friends. 
00:18:45 Ian Hull 
And they're important in my life, and so yes, you, you tend to gear up some of your emotions on on those situations. 
00:18:52 Avi Charney 
So yeah, it's it must be difficult to deal with all that and another aspect to your practice. 
00:18:58 Avi Charney 
I mentioned the litigation planning admin. 
00:19:01 Avi Charney 
The I guess 4th aspect which could title together in a way, is mediation. 
00:19:06 Avi Charney 
You're also a well known respected estate mediator. 
00:19:10 Avi Charney 
I'm I'm trying to get into mediation. 
00:19:12 Avi Charney 
I just did a course about mediation and realize how you know. 
00:19:15 Avi Charney 
Also intensely emotional could be how you have to straddle between these two parties. 
00:19:19 Avi Charney 
Can you talk a bit about your mediation? 
00:19:21 Avi Charney 
Experience and a little bit a little bit about what it takes to resolve these conflicts. 
00:19:28 Ian Hull 
Sure, so yeah, I I love mediating cases if I if I can and. 
00:19:34 Ian Hull 
I guess where I one of the things that always surprises me I'm I'm old enough to say that mediation is a brand new area of our practice. 
00:19:42 Ian Hull 
When I first started practicing law, mediation was not a thing, literally. 
00:19:47 Ian Hull 
I remember graduated from law school at Windsor with our gold medals with Alan Stidd and a great friend of mine. 
00:19:54 Ian Hull 
And he went to Harvard after he graduated and did a mediation master. 
00:20:00 Ian Hull 
With the leading mediation training in the world at the time, and we all thought. 
00:20:05 Ian Hull 
But what's he doing? 
00:20:06 Ian Hull 
I mean, he could be a Supreme Court Justice Canada clerk. 
00:20:09 Ian Hull 
She could do anything he wants and he went to do that. And of course he was way ahead of the curve and this is one of the Canada's best mediators, but. 
00:20:17 Ian Hull 
You know, I I. 
00:20:18 Ian Hull 
So I, I knew once I started to practice law that you're essentially a mediator and I do feel personally I think the profession has got a bit lazy on the exchange between counsel to. 
00:20:29 Ian Hull 
All problems I think we tend to now rely on mediators to jump into the process more than than it used to be. 
00:20:37 Ian Hull 
We were just forced to get on a call and say, OK, I get that point. 
00:20:40 Ian Hull 
But what about this point and those kinds of discussions and not to say they don't happen but they. 
00:20:45 Ian Hull 
I think there's a ability for us to do more of that, and I I say to my associates. 
00:20:49 Ian Hull 
All the time. 
00:20:50 Ian Hull 
Pick up the phone. 
00:20:51 Ian Hull 
And create the rapport with the Council to to help take some of the temperature down but but as to me my personal mediation practice, I actually went down to the Harvard course. 
00:21:03 Ian Hull 
They have a. 
00:21:03 Ian Hull 
They have a great course down there. 
00:21:04 Ian Hull 
Pretty cold, but of course many years ago I went down and spent a week getting training there. 
00:21:08 Ian Hull 
And I changed my life in a sense. 
00:21:09 Avi Charney 
That that's the course I just did. 
00:21:11 Avi Charney 
Now it's on zoom, so I just. 
00:21:12 Avi Charney 
Did that course as well. 
00:21:14 Ian Hull 
See and it's fantastic. 
00:21:15 Ian Hull 
It's a game changer, isn't it? 
00:21:18 Ian Hull 
So that's great. 
00:21:19 Ian Hull 
I'm glad that they're they're still running it on zoom. 
00:21:22 Ian Hull 
You won't. 
00:21:23 Ian Hull 
I mean it's helped my practice immensely, and it's also helped my mediation practice. 
00:21:27 Ian Hull 
Again, I think as a mediator. 
00:21:30 Ian Hull 
There's two things I always think about when I'm meeting. 
00:21:32 Ian Hull 
In any case, one is is that. 
00:21:35 Ian Hull 
Be listening. 
00:21:36 Ian Hull 
Be a good listener for sure and empathy. 
00:21:39 Ian Hull 
Empathy is important, but also be a lead. 
00:21:43 Ian Hull 
And lead discussions and lead. 
00:21:45 Ian Hull 
And at some points you know leave your thoughts. 
00:21:48 Ian Hull 
Uh, there's all sorts of schools of thoughts on how to mediate by my personal style is at some point I will give some of my own views and and that's in part because I think people retain me because they're expecting that at some point. 
00:22:02 Ian Hull 
And and you know it'll be the same for you as you build your mediation practice. 
00:22:06 Ian Hull 
You've got an expertise people want to know what your thoughts are in the context of the facts that they've given you. 
00:22:12 Ian Hull 
But boy, is it you know, my final thought. 
00:22:15 Ian Hull 
Immediate issue is it's such a crucial part of practice and it has game change. 
00:22:20 Ian Hull 
Disputes, I mean when I started a file in the in the early 90s at a will challenge, it was a 2 1/2 to three year process. 
00:22:28 Ian Hull 
It's now on average somewhere between a year and a year and a half now. 
00:22:32 Ian Hull 
COVID blown that out of the water a little bit, but you know, we shrunk it almost in half by getting to mediation quickly using the core facts. 
00:22:41 Ian Hull 
Upon what you need to rely on and looking for results as opposed to looking for process. 
00:22:47 Avi Charney 
It's incredible. 
00:22:48 Avi Charney 
It's important part, and I think it's growing because of the reasons you've mentioned and it's important part of the process. 
00:22:56 Avi Charney 
In summer with some of our previous guests also, estate lawyers are just to name two Dancar and Professor Oosterhoff. 
00:23:05 Avi Charney 
I asked him the question so in your long careers, what has changed and both said not much actually, but in the past year I don't think you know that. 
00:23:15 Avi Charney 
Was in 2020. I interviewed them. I think this year they would have a different answer and I'll ask you the same question. Obviously, as you know, spurred on by Doug Downey, our attorney. 
00:23:26 Avi Charney 
General, there's been a lot of significant changes and perhaps more to come, so can you comment on the changes that have been made and then we'll get to after that. 
00:23:36 Avi Charney 
What changes you suggest going forward? 
00:23:39 Ian Hull 
Sure, well I think I mean I as I say, I think mediation practice change the the practice of contentious matters and non contentious matters. 
00:23:46 Ian Hull 
But a lot of our work in it's I'm know yours as well as you get into situations where you have a semi contentious situation or a semi contentious administration or semi contentious. 
00:23:56 Ian Hull 
Aspect of the estate work, and that's that. 
00:24:01 Ian Hull 
That that's facilitating the collaboration and mediations changed things tremendously in that regard. 
00:24:07 Ian Hull 
Yeah, I mean look we. 
00:24:08 Ian Hull 
We can't show Doug Downey enough from his efforts. 
00:24:12 Ian Hull 
He he's been as important as an attorney general. 
00:24:14 Ian Hull 
As anyone at going back to Roy Mcmurtry days where where Roy brought in, you know, profound amendments to the whole area of the state. 
00:24:24 Ian Hull 
And you know, Doug Downey is focused on some legislative changes but really focused on process change. 
00:24:30 Ian Hull 
And that's really what I think matters. 
00:24:34 Ian Hull 
I would disagree a little bit that things haven't changed that much on the litigation side, even over the last 20 years because of mediation, but I would entirely agree substantively, that we really have been in a vacuum substantively for too long, but. 
00:24:51 Ian Hull 
I think we're we're moving out of that a little bit, but again, you know the problem is and I you know, I was on a call recently with the client on a terrible elder abuse situation and the elder law problems that are crafted created these days. 
00:25:04 Ian Hull 
Or we're always there. 
00:25:05 Ian Hull 
But are we? 
00:25:06 Ian Hull 
We are completely insufficiently prepared to address elder law abuse in Canada. 
00:25:11 Ian Hull 
And it's been that way all through my practice, but it's obviously getting accelerated, and COVID has brought it through the roof. 
00:25:18 Ian Hull 
But yet, really, there has been no meaningful progress. 
00:25:22 Ian Hull 
In terms of streamlining the solution to an obvious elder law environment where abuse may be occurring and I don't blame anyone who's in the system, I blame the fact that government just isn't paying attention to that issue as a priority and I will say Doug Downey has brought some priority. 
00:25:42 Ian Hull 
To the substantive work. 
00:25:44 Ian Hull 
But the elder law is a more complicated area because we we need some, we need some federal assistance to the Criminal Code as well, and we're going to need some provincial assistance, so it it adds another layer of we need a lot of people interested. 
00:25:56 Ian Hull 
Did it it? 
00:25:58 Ian Hull 
But I will say that the most recent changes that Doug got down is brought forward is isn't is welcome. 
00:26:05 Ian Hull 
I think the process will not will ever be any. 
00:26:08 Ian Hull 
It will always continue to get better. 
00:26:10 Ian Hull 
The substantive I have to be realistic. 
00:26:12 Ian Hull 
I mean, this has been a priority. 
00:26:14 Ian Hull 
This has been a great attorney general, doesn't always last forever, so we're working hard and with a group of lawyers to try to continue to push forward with. 
00:26:25 Ian Hull 
Opportunities to just see if we can continue to tweak things to keep moving forward. 
00:26:30 Ian Hull 
And obviously you know substantial compliance which just came in was a. 
00:26:34 Ian Hull 
It's an illustration. 
00:26:36 Ian Hull 
Where all the other provinces almost entirely have created that that opportunity for wills, and we finally did, and those are sorts of things. 
00:26:45 Ian Hull 
The revocation by marriage, those kinds of changes. 
00:26:49 Ian Hull 
Those were, I think. 
00:26:51 Ian Hull 
Low hanging fruit and I think was great that Doug Downey brought those in and I'm sure he's ready to continue and he said he is ready to continue with this progress, but we'll have to see where the political reality sets in. 
00:27:04 Ian Hull 
But we we we were thankful of the changes already. 
00:27:08 Avi Charney 
No, so I mean you, you mentioned that there's a lot of need for. 
00:27:11 Avi Charney 
Change as well. 
00:27:13 Avi Charney 
Go into as much or as little detail as you want, but what are the top items on the agenda? 
00:27:18 Avi Charney 
If you were attorney General today, what would you do if they were regarding elder law? 
00:27:21 Avi Charney 
Or anything for that matter. 
00:27:24 Ian Hull 
Well, I think I mean, uh, there was a bit of a pet peeve for me right now because I think what we have to do. 
00:27:28 Ian Hull 
Is create a situation like? 
00:27:30 Ian Hull 
The difficulty with elder abuse. 
00:27:33 Ian Hull 
Is that a? 
00:27:35 Ian Hull 
The process is cumbersome, would be that the judges aren't equipped to deal with these situations where you're into that Gray area of capacity or you've got one child. 
00:27:44 Ian Hull 
He was dominating the. 
00:27:45 Ian Hull 
Karen and the other child has to come in and and take steps. 
00:27:50 Ian Hull 
The hard and fast rules that are created there, for example, you need to have a fine even capacity to get a guardianship order. 
00:27:58 Ian Hull 
Maybe some of those things should be revisited, and quite frankly, there's been some great law reform already on this. 
00:28:03 Ian Hull 
The long Form Commission Law Commission of Ontario and I wasn't on that subcommittee, but worked very hard. 
00:28:10 Ian Hull 
Has created some really. 
00:28:12 Ian Hull 
Tangible illustrations of how we could move forward with some elder law legislation. 
00:28:19 Ian Hull 
You know that then coming back to the other area, the the practice is that is is that you know efficiencies are being built into the practice of law, but. 
00:28:30 Ian Hull 
There needs to be a balancing. I mean the rules with respect to wills and estates have been around for 600 years. Magna Carter kind of stuff forever. 
00:28:39 Ian Hull 
And so I also don't want to be rushing too fast to the finish line on some of these amendments that are being talked about where I think we you know there is a good reason to keep things sort of the way they they are. 
00:28:54 Ian Hull 
But you know, I here's another easy illustration. 
00:28:58 Ian Hull 
I think there is. 
00:28:59 Ian Hull 
We're way past the time for wet signatures. I mean wet signatures on a will is, I think, is it's dinosaur time with the technology the way it is, we can prevent fraud and we can do all of the things that in the 1500s they couldn't. And that's why they had to have two people who witnessed it. 
00:29:18 Ian Hull 
I I wouldn't mind rushing to that end line on that on that element of the practice and and, but you know, and I've spoken to Doug Downey personally about this. 
00:29:27 Ian Hull 
I mean, I get that there is some resistance to that kind of a dramatic step, and So what? 
00:29:34 Ian Hull 
What I like to do is when I when I see opportunities and. 
00:29:37 Ian Hull 
Discounts come up and certainly with made with the legislation. 
00:29:41 Ian Hull 
Look at other jurisdictions, see what they've done. 
00:29:45 Ian Hull 
See where the problems have been created and try to tweak it to make it fit Ontario and and we've done that with made we we can do that with wet signatures. 
00:29:54 Ian Hull 
I think those are the kinds of innovation that the public needs and that we can do, and with with comfort and without exhausting the profound. 
00:30:05 Ian Hull 
Importance of these rules which are around for good reason. 
00:30:10 Avi Charney 
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of room for improvement. 
00:30:12 Avi Charney 
Electronic rules are maybe that'll you know be joining us in the near future. 
00:30:18 Avi Charney 
I want to ask you even about your immense courtroom experience. 
00:30:22 Avi Charney 
I mean, you you've appeared at every level of of courts. 
00:30:27 Avi Charney 
Maybe you can focus a bit on your Supreme Court experience, but you know what, what's your feelings? 
00:30:33 Avi Charney 
Or preparation or kind of going into a regular? 
00:30:37 Avi Charney 
Court in Toronto and University Ave versus a Court of Appeal versus the Supreme Court. 
00:30:42 Avi Charney 
How do you? 
00:30:43 Avi Charney 
Approach those appearances differently. 
00:30:48 Ian Hull 
Well, you know. 
00:30:50 Ian Hull 
It is my Supreme Court appearance was was life changing for sure and and I didn't, I didn't. 
00:30:56 Ian Hull 
It was recently recent in my career, so I had wished you know I'd done it sooner. 
00:31:02 Ian Hull 
I would have been I'd be a better lawyer for having done it sooner because of what I what you go through for that experience. 
00:31:07 Ian Hull 
I mean, I always hard. 
00:31:08 Ian Hull 
Come back my dad I think was in Supreme Court of Canada over 25 times and and in those days it was just a thing you did. We just added to the list so that's another appeal. We're going to walk over there and. 
00:31:18 Ian Hull 
Uh, and so the fact that I got there once was was a great experience and and and really life changing, there's nothing more daunting than having that panel of a full panel looking down at you and you're thinking. 
00:31:31 Ian Hull 
To yourself, you know I just scraped through law school. 
00:31:34 Ian Hull 
I what do I? 
00:31:35 Ian Hull 
Know like this is this is a bunch of really smart people and then to the right. 
00:31:39 Ian Hull 
You've got 25 clerks. You're all gold medalists at all the law schools. So you're you, you can't. 
00:31:47 Ian Hull 
Reenact the terror again, but having said that it was obviously a tremendous experience, but but one of the things that I had refocused on when I appeared. 
00:31:59 Ian Hull 
This reported Canada and and now have been included in my practice. 
00:32:02 Ian Hull 
Now it says that. 
00:32:05 Ian Hull 
You at that level you are just ready to answer questions they don't care about your pitch, you they want, you know you can weave your pitch in, but they just you have to be ready for questions and I think that's changed my practice. 
00:32:19 Ian Hull 
Certainly at the Court of Appeal level and and if I ever go back for Supreme Court of Canada, I'll be ready for that task. 
00:32:24 Ian Hull 
Love it, but it what it's allowed me to do at at the at the Superior Court level where I'm at most 99% of the time is be anticipating. 
00:32:34 Ian Hull 
What are the questions in the minds of the judge? 
00:32:36 Ian Hull 
They'll give you the time to make your submission at the Superior Court level, but what has helped me is is that my focus is now. 
00:32:45 Ian Hull 
Much more fine tuned on what is bothering the judge. 
00:32:49 Ian Hull 
They'll hear the story. 
00:32:50 Ian Hull 
I'll get the story in or they'll have seen the story through the fact them and so on. 
00:32:54 Ian Hull 
But what would be bothering the judge? 
00:32:57 Ian Hull 
And in a sense, what questions would the judge like to ask if they were more like at the Supreme Court level where they have expectation is is that you're just going to get asked the question what is going through the judges mind? 
00:33:09 Ian Hull 
And so that's helped me tremendously. 
00:33:11 Ian Hull 
I I will say it is a different game I I came through. 
00:33:16 Ian Hull 
Through, uh. 
00:33:17 Ian Hull 
Month over a month long trial and right in the depths of Kovin and I'm about to go into another long trial. 
00:33:22 Ian Hull 
This fall it is a very different advocacy game on zoom to do a trial, but I I learned enough to get through the first one and I'll get through this one. 
00:33:34 Ian Hull 
Long trials on zoom is a completely. 
00:33:38 Ian Hull 
New ball game. 
00:33:40 Avi Charney 
Just to follow up on that, is it you know as efficient is it effective at all? 
00:33:45 Avi Charney 
Can a trial or a mediation or whatever the case may be be conducted over zoom or do you feel you know disabled because of that limited? 
00:33:56 Avi Charney 
Well, I think. 
00:33:56 Ian Hull 
Mediation yes 100%. I I actually think mediation is is. 
00:34:01 Ian Hull 
You know, enhanced over zoom at some level. 
00:34:04 Ian Hull 
I'm not as fussed about mediation. 
00:34:06 Ian Hull 
I'll mediate over zoom. 
00:34:08 Ian Hull 
You know, almost anytime and when we come back full time, I think there's still a nice tactile element of mediation as a mediator. 
00:34:15 Ian Hull 
I still liked to be able to sit them in in the room and look them. 
00:34:18 Ian Hull 
In the eye a little more, but at. 
00:34:20 Ian Hull 
Trial what what's what in my view, is it? 
00:34:23 Ian Hull 
It's it's good or bad. 
00:34:24 Ian Hull 
Like anything right? The efficiencies are there. You can't run a long trial without a team behind you because you're calling up documents and a pace that is rapid fire compared to at A at a regular trial where you would say book 6, tab 23. 
00:34:39 Ian Hull 
The judge would open it and look at it. 
00:34:41 Ian Hull 
Now just going boom document numbers so and so boom boom. 
00:34:44 Ian Hull 
So the pacing on the on the evidence side is is is much different. 
00:34:48 Ian Hull 
But I will. 
00:34:50 Ian Hull 
My personal view is it's advantage witness on the cross. 
00:34:54 Ian Hull 
It's very difficult to cross examine on a trial. 
00:34:58 Ian Hull 
It's not impossible, and I've had successes and failures. 
00:35:01 Ian Hull 
Don't get me wrong, but I find that as the. 
00:35:04 Ian Hull 
The tougher 
00:35:07 Ian Hull 
Skill to develop and some people are getting better at it than others, quicker than others. 
00:35:12 Ian Hull 
But All in all you know. 
00:35:15 Ian Hull 
I mean, it's not about complaining at all, because I don't care. 
00:35:17 Ian Hull 
I I, if that's the system, I'll work within the system. 
00:35:20 Ian Hull 
It's more about making sure that I, I personally like to identify we're going to be my. 
00:35:26 Ian Hull 
Personal weaknesses in a in a zoom trial, what do I have to build up on and and my personal exposure is getting better at cross on a camera. 
00:35:36 Avi Charney 
Well, there's a lot a lot of room for growth and development there within the whole zoom framework. 
00:35:42 Avi Charney 
Just to shift a little bit, one of my last questions for you is you speak to lawyers in other areas. 
00:35:50 Avi Charney 
Criminal law for example, and they say don't become a criminal lawyer if some if someone was just starting out. 
00:35:57 Avi Charney 
You know graduated law school got called to the bar and is deciding whether to. 
00:36:01 Avi Charney 
Be an estate lawyer or a criminal lawyer, real estate lawyer, whatever the case may be. 
00:36:06 Avi Charney 
What would you advise them to pursue, estates or not? 
00:36:08 Avi Charney 
And then? 
00:36:09 Avi Charney 
Follow up to that is once that once they've made that decision, what kind of advice would you give them to XLS an estate lawyer? 
00:36:18 Ian Hull 
Well, I guess my own. 
00:36:21 Ian Hull 
Uh, personal view is is that if if I had someone asked me that question, I and I do say this from time to time. 
00:36:28 Ian Hull 
When I'm asked I always say this I would be coming estate. 
00:36:31 Ian Hull 
Planning lawyer right now. 
00:36:33 Ian Hull 
And and I say that and I am so proud of you and your career because you have rocketed into this area of estate planning and wills drafting at A at a professional level. 
00:36:44 Ian Hull 
That that parallels no one. 
00:36:47 Ian Hull 
I could tell you because you had the guts to jump into the area coming from. 
00:36:53 Ian Hull 
You know, good exposure to it before, but but you had the guts to jump into the area and so I would. 
00:36:59 Ian Hull 
I would want to turn around that question on you on how to succeed 'cause you have succeeded, but why I say that is this I I do think the profession has lost. 
00:37:11 Ian Hull 
So many estate planning lawyers to retirement and and death and and so on that I think that the area if you're going to get into a states that I personally believe the area of growth is is estate planning and wills drafting. 
00:37:26 Ian Hull 
But I also think it's an area of it's sustainable. 
00:37:31 Ian Hull 
You're not in high conflict every day. 
00:37:33 Ian Hull 
You have to be ready to be in high conflict every day. 
00:37:36 Ian Hull 
If you're going to be in a state litigator and it's hard to know whether or not you want to be in high conflict every day for the next 30 or 40 years when you're in, you know you start your. 
00:37:48 Ian Hull 
I still love what I do and I still do 80% of my practices litigation, so I'm still in high conflict every day, but it's kind of dumb luck. 
00:37:55 Ian Hull 
I I didn't know I would be. 
00:37:57 Ian Hull 
My dad always shoved me away from the estate planning work. 
00:38:00 Ian Hull 
He didn't think I was well suited for it and he might have been right. 
00:38:04 Ian Hull 
You know the the the the ability to have attention to detail. 
00:38:07 Ian Hull 
And the patients. 
00:38:09 Ian Hull 
And the systemizing of your practice and the and the ability to be available to clients on a on a literally a moments notice in a sense, like a true corporate commercial lawyer at the end of the fall. 
00:38:20 Ian Hull 
And they need you then, and they don't need you in an hour. 
00:38:22 Ian Hull 
All of that is is very important to be ready for. 
00:38:27 Ian Hull 
If if you're going to get into that area of the states. 
00:38:29 Ian Hull 
Work, but you know and I won't say this because I know it. 
00:38:33 Ian Hull 
I just feel it and you you can probably answer the question better. 
00:38:36 Ian Hull 
I can. 
00:38:36 Ian Hull 
I mean it's got to be more rewarding at. 
00:38:38 Ian Hull 
Some level now, look personally love litigating I couldn't be happier when I'm in court. 
00:38:43 Ian Hull 
That's what I do and I love. 
00:38:45 Ian Hull 
But again, as I say, it might be just dumb luck that I do and I'm now into my 32nd year of practice and I still love it and hopefully touchwood. If I can stay healthy, keep doing it for a long time. But I really think. 
00:38:59 Ian Hull 
It's a bit of an access to justice issue, and I think there's also tremendous opportunities to make an efficient estate planning practice. 
00:39:08 Ian Hull 
Go and and and therefore it gives you a lifestyle opportunity that I'm not sure litigation does at the same level, but I don't regret it. 
00:39:18 Ian Hull 
I don't say to anybody. 
00:39:19 Ian Hull 
Don't be in a state litigator because boy, it's been rewarding for me. 
00:39:22 Ian Hull 
So I I think it's it can be rewarding for a lot of people. 
00:39:27 Avi Charney 
Well, I I can't deny that my success is directly even attributed to you and Jordy 18. 
00:39:35 Avi Charney 
Your mentorship I. 
00:39:37 Avi Charney 
I'm seriously when people ask me how I built it. 
00:39:41 Avi Charney 
The answer is find a good mentor. 
00:39:43 Avi Charney 
Find people who are willing to teach. 
00:39:44 Avi Charney 
Give you their time and you enjoy the appearing every week. 
00:39:48 Avi Charney 
You should continue to do it because it's immensely helpful. 
00:39:51 Avi Charney 
And if people don't know already, the Eastside software has also been immensely helpful. 
00:39:56 Avi Charney 
Uhm, you know being accurate, producing high quality documents. 
00:40:00 Avi Charney 
I think every state lawyer needs to be using some sort of software to make their practice more efficient if they're not. 
00:40:07 Avi Charney 
Like I've heard you comment, it's it's just backwards. 
00:40:09 Avi Charney 
It's doing everybody a disservice themselves and their clients. 
00:40:12 Avi Charney 
And I really think the whole world needs to be aware of such technology and adopt it. 
00:40:18 Avi Charney 
'cause that is the future. 
00:40:19 Avi Charney 
So that's my answer. 
00:40:21 Avi Charney 
Find good lawyers like yourself who are teaching and available and can you can. 
00:40:27 Avi Charney 
Practically emulate, that's really the trick. 
00:40:29 Avi Charney 
You, you know no one is inventing the wheel. 
00:40:31 Avi Charney 
You know you. 
00:40:32 Avi Charney 
You mentioned the mentorship of your father, and I really advise other young lawyers is to just find good lawyers and try to emulate them and develop a relationship with them and. 
00:40:42 Avi Charney 
And that's that's how I do it. 
00:40:44 Avi Charney 
And again, I appreciate that you're one of those people and and you should keep it up because it's it's. 
00:40:48 Avi Charney 
Really a great help to us all. 
00:40:51 Ian Hull 
Well thanks Abby, but I I I will say though it's it's a I think it's. 
00:40:55 Ian Hull 
People underestimate the ability to do what you did in the sense of reaching out and using the rule using the resources that are there as a as a tool for mentoring. 
00:41:05 Ian Hull 
You know, some people say, well, look, I don't know anyone in the area. 
00:41:08 Ian Hull 
I don't know have any clients? 
00:41:09 Ian Hull 
Well, it's all available. 
00:41:11 Ian Hull 
And it's a question of. 
00:41:13 Ian Hull 
Putting your head down, doing the good work product and learning who is out there and learning what resources are out there and who who and reaching out to some people. 
00:41:21 Ian Hull 
Some people are better at it than others in terms of their their mentoring and the sense of availability or interest in doing. 
00:41:27 Ian Hull 
It so I I appreciate your nice comments about us and we we we pride ourselves in the mentoring work. 
00:41:33 Ian Hull 
That we do, but you know, I, I do think it's a, uh, an area of practice that people can build if they put their mind to it. 
00:41:44 Avi Charney 
Absolutely have a solid foundation and with surround yourself by good people and you can. 
00:41:48 Avi Charney 
Do anything for that matter. 
00:41:50 Ian Hull 
That's right. 
00:41:51 Avi Charney 
Yeah, I very appreciate your time here and your wisdom and you know, I know we've scratched the surface. 
00:41:57 Avi Charney 
But look forward to continuing our discussion and seeing you on the the weekly mentorship calls. 
00:42:02 Avi Charney 
And you know, continuing to stay in touch. 
00:42:06 Ian Hull 
Well thanks. 
00:42:06 Ian Hull 
I mean this is a real thrill for me and a privilege to be chatting with you and always glad to. 
00:42:12 Avi Charney 
See, I appreciate it. 
00:42:13 Avi Charney 
I look forward to seeing. 
00:42:14 Avi Charney 
You again soon. 
00:42:16 Avi Charney 
You better take care. 
00:42:17 Avi Charney 
Thank you again.