Transcript Avi Charney Marsha Mark Morris. Avi Charney Thank you for joining me on my podcast. Avi Charney Speak to a lawyer. Avi Charney You're a great friend, a great lawyer, a mentor, and for those who don't know, you've been a real help in me and Maya for me and my practice. Avi Charney I've pretty much emulated you in many ways with my real estate practiced. Avi Charney Specifically residential real estate. Avi Charney You've taught me so much at the past year or so, since we've known each other. Avi Charney I look forward to a continued relationship with you, and I look forward to using this opportunity to delve into a little bit of your background and who you are and what makes you tick. Avi Charney So if you want, we can start right there. Avi Charney Share with. Moshe Morris It's good find Abby it's fine. Avi Charney Well, I'm just getting started. Moshe Morris Thank you Sir. Avi Charney I like to say these intro marks are abbreviated. Avi Charney I could go even further but will give you the mic for now and ask the intro question what prompted you to study law. Moshe Morris What prompted me to study law? Moshe Morris I wasn't. Moshe Morris It wasn't expecting to. Moshe Morris Go back that far so. Moshe Morris Law was something that I rather thought I would enjoy. Moshe Morris I was a bit lost actually. Moshe Morris When I when I was doing my undergrad I did my undergrad in political science and history and it turns out that there weren't that many people that needed my advice on either politics or history and truthfully. Moshe Morris Law school Moshe Morris It was something that ran in my family and it was suggested to me it would be a good idea and I know this sounds. Moshe Morris This sounds less than stellar because at this point in your life, you're supposed to say I was driven in the following ways, but the truth is, I don't think I derived my drive at that time. Moshe Morris I think I was kind of following a a course. Moshe Morris And and I ended up going into law school and dumb. Moshe Morris To be very frank, disliking it immensely, not not the actual school experience. Moshe Morris I had a great time in school, but the practice of law was not something that I very much enjoyed while in law school, and it wasn't actually until I started practicing that I actually started to really fall for the subject and really enjoyed tremendously. Avi Charney Amazing so take us through as you graduated. Avi Charney What was your first job in law? Avi Charney I know we've spoken about this personally, but I think your story needs to be heard by all. Avi Charney So let's go through the beginning little bit. Moshe Morris I'm happy to, but I'll preface it by saying that anyone who tells you a story that is predicated upon success is probably not telling you the real story, because the people who I've encountered in life who have the best stories have failure and not just minor failure, but significant. Moshe Morris Failure, and indeed my my career was replete with that as well. Moshe Morris And so rather than go into the highlights and successes, because if students are watching this, you know it's it's probably helpful to understand that hey, you can be successful at the end if you go through the hardships, I will tell you, I will tell you about the career, warts and all, and then we can go from there. Moshe Morris I graduated law school and I was involved in politics. Moshe Morris So despite what I said about not finding a political position, it turns out I was able to do so after law school, I helped a politician run his campaign who became the Attorney General of Ontario. Moshe Morris He and I were friends and he asked me to be his policy advisor down at Queens Park, which indeed I was. Moshe Morris I was his policy advisor until he switched portfolios to a different ministry. Moshe Morris And at that time I thought, OK, I'm a lawyer with law degree under my belt, and I've been the attorney general policy advisor. Moshe Morris And absolutely everyone will want this Betty of experience. Moshe Morris But no one did, because truthfully, I didn't have. Moshe Morris Any practice under my belts and you? Moshe Morris Know it's not really that useful. Moshe Morris If you aren't actually making policy. Moshe Morris What's more, because of my law school experience, which I didn't enjoy all that much, I I decided that perhaps I would try other things. Moshe Morris So I did go into. Moshe Morris My family's law firm for about three or four months while I was trying to figure things out and we were successful in actually securing a piece of land as part of as payment for some litigation that we engaged in. Moshe Morris And at that point I decided that I would be a builder because we had this piece of land. Moshe Morris So why not build and I built alongside certain family members and that building project alone, probably in Ontario in the past 30 years was unsuccessful. Moshe Morris It was unsuccessful and and the. Moshe Morris Interesting part was not that it was unsuccessful, was unsuccessful for a variety of reasons that I could probably. Moshe Morris Bring up. Moshe Morris But the important part of the lack of success was the way I dealt with it. Moshe Morris Uhm, really upon realizing that the project wasn't a financial success, I went through a lot of internal conservation and and and kind of started approaching this and started saying what went wrong. Moshe Morris Where did this failure take place? Moshe Morris What was missing, and why are other people to do this and not myself? Moshe Morris And that internal retrospection, which, by the way has happened many times through subsequent failures in my career and successes. Moshe Morris Prompted me to say I'm missing certain skill sets. Moshe Morris And I then. Moshe Morris Uhm, shortly thereafter, applied to become to my MBA, which I did down at the Rotman school and I went down to Rotman and I was very purposeful when I was at. Moshe Morris It's a bit different when you, when you've worked for a while, there's a couple of years where I worked intervening that I missed out, but I was about two or three years after my law degree. Moshe Morris That I actually went back to my MBA and it's very purposeful. Moshe Morris When you go back to education after you've been out in the real world as opposed to just go. Moshe Morris Through partially because of course you're a bit older, bit more mature, and that's great, but also because when people feed you information and you have very little experience, it's very hard to figure out where in the knowledge tree you should actually be putting that piece of information that they're trying to give you. Moshe Morris Whereas when you've had a. Moshe Morris Business failures such as I had down at in this building project. Moshe Morris Then you are able to contextualize what it is that people are saying, and put that into a larger picture. Moshe Morris And it's a picture for me that allowed me to fill in a lot of my gaps. Moshe Morris So when people were teaching me financial analysis or accounting or anything else, I was able to say uh-huh that financial analysis would have come in very useful in the building project had I been able to do the following forward future planning. Moshe Morris Or, you know, with accounting, I would have been able to say, alright, this is where I failed. Moshe Morris In the project, this is where this comes in, and because of that every bit of information that came to me from my MBA, not every bit, but the parts that were relevant to my failures. Moshe Morris Really were contextualized in. Moshe Morris I I also became a bit humble in my MBA and due to business failures from before and as a result when I graduated my MBA, I decided that I would. Moshe Morris Try to find an organization that would be able to support my learning and growth, 'cause I realized I still had I. Moshe Morris I realized real estate was of interest to me through the building projects through the litigation from before. Moshe Morris And so I made an application to a gentleman named Mitch. Moshe Morris Goldhar who runs smart centres and I said man, who was one of my professors down in Rome, and I said Mitch, can you? Moshe Morris Can you let me into your organization smart centers and he stopped the whole program. Moshe Morris Actually, for a bunch of MBA students where they were able to do rotational experience through the entire land development production facility that he has. Moshe Morris 'cause he builds those retail centers. Moshe Morris And although I would like at this point to say that I was success then as well, truth is that was another failure and it was not a failure. Moshe Morris Born of lack of trying. Moshe Morris I was trying to be successful. Moshe Morris I didn't have the skill sets within that organization to be successful, and the skill sets that I didn't have, and I in retrospect, I've realized that are dealing with large corporations and organizations being a fluid part and the connective tissue that is so valuable to those. Moshe Morris Larger entities, my wife, my wife works in one of those types of organizations, and I see that all the time and I see how well she works with others. Moshe Morris I didn't have the. Moshe Morris That ability and so. Moshe Morris Shortly thereafter, I was fired from my first job. Moshe Morris We're still friends and I still like Mitch. Moshe Morris Mitch still likes me and you know where we it didn't end badly, but I certainly wasn't a very good business fit. Moshe Morris And and so I had two lovely failures under my belt with a I had one or two small businesses that were successful. Moshe Morris But really two big large business failures. Moshe Morris And here I was. Moshe Morris You know, approaching my 30s and not much to show for it except. Moshe Morris Accept failure. Moshe Morris You know I took the course when I was in my MBA, which is interesting and and I know we have a lot to talk about, but I'll just quickly go into it. Moshe Morris It was actually by a professor who's now fairly famous and his name is Jordan Peterson, Jordan Peterson. Moshe Morris He was it was just Austin, 12 other people in a circle around Jordan Peterson for a whole year. Moshe Morris It was wonderful course. Moshe Morris And he was teaching a course at the time called maps of meaning, and what maps and meaning was about was it was basically an analysis of religious experience. Moshe Morris And he said, I don't care if you're religious or if you believe in God or. Moshe Morris Anything else he's like? Moshe Morris But what is true about religions is that their stories passed from generation to generation, often before writing and. Moshe Morris For that to be case. Moshe Morris I'm going to work on the assumption that something meaningful is being imparted in these stories, even if they're just stories, he said. Moshe Morris So let's take a look at what all these stories say. Moshe Morris And the stories and the inter connective tissue that he was able to bring out of the multitude of stories that make up the world. Moshe Morris Religions was fascinating, but the big story from a western perspective is that of fallen redemption is that of the Phoenix. Moshe Morris Into the ashes is that of of expulsion from the Garden of Eden and and redemption. Moshe Morris Is that of Jesus Christ. Moshe Morris And that you know, like. Moshe Morris We could go into every single source. Moshe Morris Sort of story, but they all have the exact same motif, which is someone falls. Moshe Morris And then there's the struggle to redeem and it's through the redemption that that person becomes a full and active human being, and I kind of see my career that way, so the falls were very obvious and I've discussed them and coming out of that, you know? Moshe Morris Like a Crucible, hardened by experience. Moshe Morris You know, and coming out of the fire, I said OK, time to kind of shape up and let's get this going. Moshe Morris I applied for and I became a real estate broker. Moshe Morris And rather than just start approaching real estate from the perspective of thank you very much and in Solo Washerman Sky. Moshe Morris And no, no harm, no foul people do very well at that. Moshe Morris And I I'm not meaning to say that that's. Moshe Morris In any way heart easy to do. Moshe Morris But I decided. Moshe Morris Look, I understand the importance of branding now. Moshe Morris Thank you. Moshe Morris My MBA. Moshe Morris I understand the importance of making sure that we have stable income streams and then I'm on top of my business. Moshe Morris Thank you very much. Moshe Morris For previous failure, I'm going. Moshe Morris To go, I started up a company called Slate. Moshe Morris Would retail advisors. Moshe Morris And Slate would retail advisors. Moshe Morris Chose to focus so, so I said OK, I'm a lawyer. Moshe Morris I'm a real estate broker. Moshe Morris What can I do? Moshe Morris So I started marking myself as slate would retail advisors with two other people in the company. Moshe Morris And Slate would was designed around. Moshe Morris Food courts of all things. Moshe Morris And what we did was we went. Moshe Morris We approached big players like the Eden Center or Yorkdale or a whole. Moshe Morris There's a whole bunch of food courts that I can mention, and we basically said look, you're about food was a very big issue in slate. Moshe Morris We were starting up because food was seen as. Moshe Morris The way of competing against a nascent Amazon as it was starting out. Moshe Morris And and I turned to, uh, I turned to Oxford. Moshe Morris I turned to Cadillac, Fairview and some others, and I said, look your food courts, you can make them as nice as you like. Moshe Morris You can put cutlery in there or anything else, but you are still in A&W, and then McDonald's and God knows what it's going to be the exact same as every other food. Moshe Morris Portal World Slate would is about bringing regional diversity. Moshe Morris To your food courts. Moshe Morris And shockingly, they bought that pitch and they started giving me locations within these places, and so big smoke burger as an example, which you probably know now and and and urban, herbivore and and and I I could go into any number of names. Moshe Morris But effectively these were small operations and I. Moshe Morris Brought them and. Moshe Morris I said look, this is the regional diversity of Toronto food operations. Moshe Morris Let's get them in. Moshe Morris And to those operators I said, look in addition to getting you space. Moshe Morris Let me help you operationalize. Moshe Morris Let me help you build your businesses. Moshe Morris Let me help you market. Moshe Morris Your business is not. Moshe Morris I don't know the first thing about it, but I did know. Moshe Morris That they needed that and I didn't know that I had at what I felt was the skills to bring that to their attention. Moshe Morris And I started genuinely helping many of these organizations with their branding with their marketing, with their operationalization and then soon law became a factor because of course under the Arthur Wichser act. Moshe Morris You need to friend. Moshe Morris And while I wasn't really operating as a franchise lawyer directing people through the franchise process was something that I became intimately familiar with, and I developed a good deal of success, and it was great and I was branding and operationalizing food, and then eventually clothing and then professional services. Moshe Morris And, you know, it started expanding into other areas like. Moshe Morris Getting people into Walmarts and and and and winners and God knows what. Moshe Morris The story I know this is very long winded, but still this. Moshe Morris Is the truth so. Avi Charney So we were enjoying it so far. Moshe Morris From here from there one day, one of my colleagues, who I remained very close with, still am very close with Lena. Moshe Morris Coke approached me and said, and this was to her credit. Moshe Morris A remarkable idea, she said, listen, you brand, you operationalize these things, why don't you brand and operationalize? Moshe Morris Your law firm. Moshe Morris Lena was with me down at Mitch's shop and of course, Mitch Primary. Moshe Morris Person or primary tenant was Walmart. Moshe Morris He was the person who brought Walmart to Canada. Moshe Morris And and so it was very natural for us to both turn our attention and say, well, OK, let's try to pitch a law firm to Walmart. Moshe Morris And indeed we did. Moshe Morris And we at that point had a successful law firm, and we had a successful practice in slate Wood which which which had credibility in the space and was doing good business and good numbers. Moshe Morris And and so we said, look, we have this law firm that's been helping. Moshe Morris Slate would operate doing some pithy little residential deals here or there and everything else we want to brand. Moshe Morris We want to operationalize it, and we want space and Walmart to its credit, said, yeah, we'll we'll do it with you, and so before I knew what happened. Moshe Morris From MGM legal, which was the name of the firm which is by the way, you should never have a law firm named after yourself, ever, ever, ever, ever with respect to Abby? Moshe Morris I know, I know, charity legal is is undergoing a, you know some some discussions on that point as well. Moshe Morris But the reason you never. Moshe Morris Want to do that? Moshe Morris By the way, is because you can't. Moshe Morris Sell MGM legal. Moshe Morris Because the chance of selling to someone who has the same initials as he was is bubkes. Moshe Morris What you want is you want is you want a brand that can be sold such that you can divorce yourself and relieve yourself of your daily responsibilities without your clients truly. Moshe Morris Realizing now that's a very difficult thing to do because you're still providing professional services at its core, but it's much easier to do with a branded operation, so we brand rebranded as we have for all of our food services and everything else MJ and legal into access law and access law became one of the largest. Moshe Morris I think it is the largest presently consumer. Moshe Morris Based law firm in Ontario and we opened up 14 locations across the GTA in Walmart location. Moshe Morris And I sold my interest in access law in 2018, and so both Slate wood and murder success or end access law were a success. Moshe Morris I then went into another business delivery pod and delivery pod was making packages. Moshe Morris For package storage devices for doors and that failed, had a failure due to actually. Moshe Morris A business dispute. Moshe Morris Not due to production. Moshe Morris We actually managed to produce. Moshe Morris It was actually a beautiful product and it was a very difficult thing to produce. Moshe Morris But due to a business dispute it failed. Moshe Morris And so requiring cash flow. Moshe Morris I then went in again into the wonderful world of law, where I have had success. Moshe Morris I opened up another firm which is called legal closing, but more importantly I started taking the experience and we could talk a bit about this afterwards, but I took the experience of my previous. Moshe Morris Experiences and I said alright, how do I build something bigger than myself? Moshe Morris And to that end I started up. Moshe Morris A lead generation idea which was a Facebook site which is now the largest Facebook site in Ontario. For legal advice for Realtors and lawyers which now has 9000 active members and provides legal education to the general public and the like and the purpose behind that was to get. Moshe Morris My name out. Moshe Morris There from a business. Moshe Morris Perspective from my business perspectives get my name out there and make sure that people know of of me as a real estate lawyer. Moshe Morris And indeed that had some success. Moshe Morris And I also started up another site called Legal Review. Moshe Morris And legal review is just an idea that really it. Moshe Morris It's it's growing, but it's growing slowly. Moshe Morris We haven't yet hit the big time with it, but it is the idea that people require status reviews and new build reviews. Moshe Morris And so I have a team of lawyers that answer status reviews and new build reviews and everything else as they come in. Moshe Morris People pay 50 bucks and lawyers then get on it then. Moshe Morris Review these things in the hopes of actually securing the file for themselves and carrying it through to completion, and I have a lot of hope for legal review. Moshe Morris It is growing slow. Moshe Morris Really, I have to put the fire under it and that's currently where my business attentions lie and that is as plain and as good as a descriptor as I can give of my career to date. Avi Charney Really fantastic and inspirational career. Avi Charney Also because you've had failures and you learned from them but just hearing your speak makes me. Avi Charney We understand and appreciate how ill equipped lawyers are for the real world, so to speak. Avi Charney You come out of law school and you don't know marketing and you don't know the business and the financials and so much so that you had to go back to do an MBA. Avi Charney So I mean, I'll, there's a few different directions we can go, but I'll throw out there that you're going to. Avi Charney If your plate isn't full enough, you're going to be a professor now at at Rice and University, and teach the next generation of lawyers real estate lawyers. Avi Charney You know, first of all, how do you fit more on your plate? Avi Charney In addition to that, but but deeper than that, perhaps. Avi Charney This is, you know, lawyers lack that basic foundational knowledge in marketing and finances, and you know, I've learned so much from you about those two areas. Avi Charney Based on your experiences as well, So what what could we do? Avi Charney As you know, let's say new graduates that need to learn more. Avi Charney Do you suggest that people go back into an MBA? Avi Charney Or you know also. Avi Charney Also, being a sole practitioner which we both are requires marketing and finances. Avi Charney You need to be a Jack of all trades. Avi Charney So how do you bridge that gap? Moshe Morris Those are excellent questions, so I am teaching Gavin Ryerson. I'm about halfway through my course. Presently I'm teaching about 100 and. Moshe Morris 10 people advanced property law at the present time, loving it, and hopefully they're loving it as well. Moshe Morris I really enjoy the three hours a week that you know we put in and it's it's great learning a lot too, by the way. Moshe Morris An ongoing learning. Moshe Morris As part of this, I think your question is an astute one, and it's particularly relevant to lawyers. Moshe Morris Uhm, such as myself. Moshe Morris If I'm to be blunt and I'm not sure what the policy is on swearing on this podcast, but I was a bit I was a bit of an arrogant ******* Speaker 1 Go ahead. Moshe Morris While going through my legal career, my failures, I think again failures happen to all of us, but I think my failures were more. Moshe Morris Substantive and longer than they needed to be by virtue of the idea that I had trouble collaborating with others. Moshe Morris It's just a failure that I had. Moshe Morris I recognize it. Moshe Morris I think I've gotten. Moshe Morris Better over the. Moshe Morris Years particularly, as I started running access and we had about 8080 staff and I had to but. Moshe Morris The truth is. Moshe Morris There is a huge value in mentorship and in people who can take you under their wing and show. Moshe Morris You the ropes. Moshe Morris You know, even though I don't know that he would be able to identify me in a in a lineup at this point, it's been so many years and and and quite frankly, given that we were never all that close to the. Moshe Morris In with but I kind of consider my time down at smart centers to be a mentorship. Moshe Morris I was absorbing like a sponge. Moshe Morris Everything that was going on there. Moshe Morris I was taking in how people were talking about real estate, how they were, how they were. Moshe Morris Functionally talking about business and I had a whole bunch of people who were able to show me the ropes, and because they kind of put me on the right track and because I was suddenly able to kind of divert into the lane, even if I wasn't successful in that lane. Moshe Morris But at least I knew where the lane went. Moshe Morris I was able to shave years off my own growth experience. Moshe Morris The NBA same thing, right? Moshe Morris Like if you think about it, I had reality beaten into me such that when the NBA kind of opened up and said hey, let me teach you this, it was. Moshe Morris It was done within the context of I'm ready to learn now and and mentorship. Moshe Morris Is really exactly that. Moshe Morris Mentorship is. Moshe Morris I am ready to teach you and save you the hassle of going down too far into the Crucible. Moshe Morris You're going to have to go through your help. Moshe Morris It doesn't need to be abject. Moshe Morris All the time. For many Moshe Morris One one of the things I tell young students. Moshe Morris All the things I tell young lawyers, is to reach out to people. Moshe Morris Many people reach out to me as well and say, hey, can you give me a helping hand? Moshe Morris I'm a young lawyer. Moshe Morris I need this direction and sure sometimes you're brushed off, but that's the worst that happens is that your brushed off. Moshe Morris Nothing bad becomes of the experience. Moshe Morris And more often than not, those people who have been through the Crucible and understand how this works try to play it forward. Moshe Morris They pay it forward either to satiate their own ego and thinking that they're good people. Moshe Morris Uh, or they pay it forward out of a genuine desire to assist professions and and because. Moshe Morris They want to. Moshe Morris You know when you when you've assembled enough information in your head and you've gotten clarity on enough points? Moshe Morris It's it's sad to think that you. Moshe Morris Know you're going. Moshe Morris To go to the grave with that and not be able to impart that or translate that into something larger. Moshe Morris And and and so for whenever the personal reason that inspires people mentorship is something that people are actively ready to give. Moshe Morris And it just short circuits. Moshe Morris So much of the of the of the hardship that one faces while starting up. Moshe Morris And you're right with lawyers. Moshe Morris It's particularly problematic 'cause so many. Moshe Morris Lawyers, I'm not saying everyone. Moshe Morris I'm not trying to make a general statement, but there is a strain of lawyer. Moshe Morris I've included myself in this. Moshe Morris Brain that not that that are not necessarily open or as open as they should be to assistance. Moshe Morris Who believe I can do this just by sheer perseverance of will and and so my. Moshe Morris Advice to those. Moshe Morris People who are starting out is be open to this. Moshe Morris Be humble, be humble and appreciate the fact that. Moshe Morris You know you're not God's gift to law, and you won't be for 10 years or 15 years except the helping hand that so many of us are ready to extend to those people who are starting out. Moshe Morris And really internalize the lessons that are being brought forth. Moshe Morris It's not just about how to do X, it's more about why you're doing X and understanding preemptively why there is a need to keep. Moshe Morris Acts in mind when you're doing Y like there's a whole bunch of information that can be imparted on a daily basis, so that would be my recommendation. Avi Charney Absolutely, and again, you've been instrumental me and my practice. Avi Charney We've spoken about a host of thing. Avi Charney Things from marketing to making the practice more efficient and making the client experience more enjoyable. Avi Charney And you know, beginning to end substantive issues. Avi Charney So there's very different kinds of lawyers you could be in house at accesslaw like you started. Avi Charney You could work at a big firm, but our type of read we're sole practitioners and. Avi Charney You know we're responsible for A-Z. The whole thing. Can you comment on the skills and the call it toolkit toolbox of a sole practitioner? What is required to be a successful sole practitioner? Moshe Morris Yeah, I'll, I'll tell you what the really the one skill that you need to have that lawyers along with everyone else are not blessed with. Moshe Morris It's something you have to figure out. Moshe Morris You will be fine like don't get me wrong, you'll go through hell in your first couple of years, but you will be fine so. Moshe Morris Long as the files keep rolling in the big skill you need at the beginning of your career is lead conversion. Moshe Morris Leads and lead conversion. Moshe Morris It's all well and good. Moshe Morris You're going to get out there. Moshe Morris You're going to say one day, let's say you graduated law school and you just decide. Moshe Morris To put out a shingle. Moshe Morris You are going to go ahead and you're going to the first thing you're going to do is you're going to work on a brand. Moshe Morris That's what most people do when they when they just why? Moshe Morris Because it's something to do, you know you need it and then you're going to work on a. Moshe Morris Website why? Because you're 25 years old or 26 years old and you know how to work on websites, so you're going to put your work into that and you get an email. Moshe Morris You're going to get a domain. Moshe Morris You're going to be set up and you're going to talk. Moshe Morris You're going to find something really, really cool to put down as your brand tagline. Moshe Morris And it's going to look so nice and fresh. Moshe Morris And then you're going to get an office and you're going to get a computer and you're going to be set up and you're going to get everything set up for real estate and wills and everything else. Moshe Morris And then you're going to finally one day sit down and everything is going to be ready and your website is going to be up and everything else. Moshe Morris And you're going to say what now? Moshe Morris The only thing that matters is the only thing you haven't been able to do. Moshe Morris Which is ensure a constant stream of files. Moshe Morris You need to ask yourself what type of business you're setting up for. Moshe Morris If you're setting up a sole practitioner ship that is designed around killing one or two files a year, that's very different than the vast majority of ways that void. Moshe Morris Ours, particularly in the sole practitioner space, operates because the way we operate is we eat what we kill on a transactional basis, and those transactions are small and usually involve maybe a couple of days, sometimes one day, sometimes a week or so of work. Moshe Morris If you're doing a will, it's a one time or two time meeting. Moshe Morris If you're doing a real estate transaction, OK, you're looking at two or three weeks. Moshe Morris But firstly, because it's largely commoditized, at least in perception from the. Moshe Morris General public. Moshe Morris There's not much meat on that bone. Moshe Morris Even if you're able to charge a hefty sum per file. Moshe Morris And as a result, the thing you need in order to survive. Moshe Morris Is an ongoing source of files and leads, and that's the one thing that your fancy website in your domain and your nice marketing and everything else hasn't been able to create. Moshe Morris And so part of the mentorship that I would strongly suggest people think about. Moshe Morris Even before they set up as the sole practitioner is how am I going to drag in files? Moshe Morris What am I going to do? Moshe Morris How am I going to do this such that I can survive? Moshe Morris You will screw those files up and there's any number of questions as to how you're going to do your accounting on those files and how you're going to actually. Moshe Morris Repair whatever problems it is and. Moshe Morris You're going to go. Moshe Morris Through all the hell and tribulation of practicing law as a young lawyer and make your mistakes and everything. Moshe Morris Else, but all of it is overcome able so long as more files come in the door, the money keeps going, allowing you to grow and become better at what you do and refine what you do. Moshe Morris There is a Japanese practice called Kaizen. Moshe Morris KIZN and the Kaizen approach was the one that was manufactured by Toyota and it is about it is designed around the idea of continual improvement. Moshe Morris Think about your career as a block of wood. Moshe Morris This is the way this is not mine. Moshe Morris By the way, someone said this to me once and it stuck with me. Moshe Morris The block of wood is literally a block and one day it will be a beautiful sculpture. Moshe Morris You have one piece of sandpaper and you just have to keep sanding and sanding and sanding and sanding and sanding and eventually the form will become apparent and eventually the form will become beautiful and eventually the form will become worth a good deal of money and other people will admire it. Moshe Morris Say I. Moshe Morris Want it, but gosh darn, does that take work and it requires you to have an unlimited supply of sandpaper to continue. Moshe Morris Be able to sand and move forward and that is where young lawyers need to concentrate most. Moshe Morris Make a plan about how you're going to get files and make a plan. Moshe Morris Don't tell me about your business and what you do. Moshe Morris Tell me about how you're going to secure your ongoing leads such that you'll survive long enough to see your beautiful plan into fruition, and you know that all too well, Abby, and that's the reality that I live every single day. Moshe Morris As well. Avi Charney Very true. Avi Charney Very true that, uh, in new clients are the lifeblood of the business, and you know, hopefully we don't retire by the time our sculpture becomes perfect. Avi Charney Hopefully it's as soon as possible and then we can, you know, work with that beautiful sculpture sculpture in place. Avi Charney I like that analogy, but just going a bit deeper here. Avi Charney You have any further tips or wisdom? Avi Charney I mean I just look at you and I think I want to do what you do. Avi Charney You have a a Facebook group of almost 10,000 people and you continue to educate and again I I emulate your your path in many ways, but over and above that, do you have any comments about how young lawyers could and should market? Moshe Morris Sure, so. Moshe Morris Let me let let's let's go let's go into. Moshe Morris Let's go so. Moshe Morris First off, I'm on a podcast that you're that you're talking. Moshe Morris About and I love that angle. Moshe Morris I mean, I understand you're doing it out of love and I understand it gives you the opportunity as well to speak with people that you admire and everything else. Moshe Morris And all of that is well and good, but from a bit, and it should always be more than just business. Moshe Morris You need to love what you do. Moshe Morris And I can tell you, do and I know you do. Moshe Morris But the truth is, this is your lead. Moshe Morris This is how you are building up your brand as much as anything else. Moshe Morris This is the angle you've chosen to attack. Moshe Morris I'm going to give someone free advice. Moshe Morris I'm not going to do this. Moshe Morris This isn't for me, but I'm going to do a branding exercise right here. Moshe Morris And I'm going to show you something that no lawyer has done yet on the street, so any of you that are listening, please feel free to take this. Moshe Morris I believe a young lawyer that does. Moshe Morris This will be successful in no time if you take this idea and go. Moshe Morris For it, but I'm. Avi Charney That's why we love you and that's why. Moshe Morris Not sure I would say. Avi Charney We have you here, Marsha. Moshe Morris I was thinking actually of giving this idea to a specific lawyer, but I'm going to give it to the podcast. Moshe Morris Just I'm going to throw it out there and then feel free guys take it, run with it and have fun. Moshe Morris The idea behind branding and perhaps we can. Moshe Morris We can go into this. Moshe Morris The idea behind branding is to establish yourself as unique in the marketplace, distinct and the problem, and we should recognize this. Moshe Morris The problem that soul Practitioning lawyers have is that we are not unique. Moshe Morris At least we're not perceived as unique. Moshe Morris I'm very well aware of the difference. Moshe Morris Between a good real estate lawyer and a bad real estate lawyer, and truthfully, so are my claim. Moshe Morris Hence, in one out of every 40 deals where I need to fight on their behalf, they're like damn that was a good real estate lawyer. Moshe Morris He knows his stuff and there it is. But you know what happens with the 39 others. The ones who didn't have a fight who were just there for the transaction. Moshe Morris They'll look at me as no different than they'll say. Moshe Morris Well, he was a bit more expensive than others. Moshe Morris And that's going to be the sole criteria. Moshe Morris We are in a commodity perceived commoditized field and recognizing that is important because if your brand is going to be, I do real estate, then you're playing into the very commoditization. Moshe Morris That is not going to allow for any of your marketing efforts to translate, right? Moshe Morris It's like, oh, I love real estate. Moshe Morris Let me buy you. Moshe Morris A home or. Moshe Morris But anyone can do. Moshe Morris That there's nothing. Moshe Morris There's nothing. Moshe Morris Make your house a. Moshe Morris Home or what? Moshe Morris Who cares this? Moshe Morris This is not branding. Moshe Morris This is not talking about anything special we're doing, and that is as applicable to Abby or myself or any other real estate lawyer out there. Moshe Morris And thus you haven't broken free of the problem. Moshe Morris Of perceived commoditization branding is your way of doing it, so I'm going to give you a suggestion. Moshe Morris I thought about last night and I was laughing on my bed and I said. Moshe Morris Who can I give this to? Moshe Morris I'm giving it to the podcast. Moshe Morris If a lawyer were to go ahead and advertise themselves, the first thing that they need to do is find the quality that they want other people to experience and examine. Moshe Morris And if you think about it from a lawyer's perspective, there are certain qualities that can bring about a differential experience in a commoditized world one is customer service. Hey, we do tremendous customer service. There we go. Moshe Morris Still others might choose to do. Moshe Morris I don't know wealth marketing or you know, or we come to you? Moshe Morris Or like all that is customer service. Moshe Morris But the other thing that lawyers are known for. Moshe Morris And I think is really underplayed, particularly given that lawyers don't really advertise very well out there. Moshe Morris Particularly real estate lawyers is negotiation. Moshe Morris And whether you're a real estate agent or whether you're a real estate lawyer. Moshe Morris Negotiation specialists in real estate is not something that is very much. Moshe Morris Recognize there's no if I think about our industry, I don't think of anyone who's actually advertising themselves as like a negotiation specialist. Moshe Morris Now there's two ways. Moshe Morris Let's just go down this path for a second. Moshe Morris There's two different ways of advertising yourself as a negotiation specialist. Moshe Morris One is to say legalclosings.ca negotiation specialists that has all the efficacy of like a wet noodle. Moshe Morris It's just a bunch of. Moshe Morris Words, it means nothing. Moshe Morris It might sound good. Moshe Morris On a plaque. Moshe Morris But there's nothing. Moshe Morris About that that is branded and makes you different. Moshe Morris Yes, you're choosing to harp on an attribute that a lot of people are not harping on, and that's great from a from a Gmail. Moshe Morris From a Google perspective, from a Facebook perspective and everything else, negotiation specialist, yada yada yada great. Moshe Morris But that is not going to imprint itself into people's mind. What will imprint itself into people's minds when they're driving down the aisle? Moshe Morris And they see your advertisement. And instead of just saying legalclosing.ca negotiation specialist, it has a picture of you as a realist. Moshe Morris As a lawyer dressed up in a. Moshe Morris Suit with a baseball bat. Moshe Morris Hovering over the person who you've just hit with that baseball bat who's currently on the ground with the word negotiation specialists real estate. Moshe Morris So what and there's a whole series? Moshe Morris Of ads that you're going to put out. Moshe Morris That basically have you chasing after people with a pitchfork and and whatever it is. Moshe Morris Because people want lawyers who will fight for them. Moshe Morris People want to feel that they have a strong arm in their corner. Moshe Morris They're paying money. Moshe Morris They want value for that money. Moshe Morris What's value value could be customer service? Moshe Morris Or it could be negotiation specialist. Moshe Morris But more importantly, it's funny. Moshe Morris It has an edge. Moshe Morris It's not something that you look at and that says like on a baseball like you know, like on a on a park bench. Moshe Morris Have faith with faith or whatever. Moshe Morris That's just that you're going to forget that in three seconds. Moshe Morris It is something that is hysterical. Moshe Morris You're going to point to your wife. Moshe Morris And you're going to. Moshe Morris Say look at that. Moshe Morris That's hysterical, and then you're going to look for the next ad that has. Moshe Morris You're the lawyer chasing this person and doing whatever it is, and it is funny, but it speaks to the truth you're trying to get out. Moshe Morris I am a negotiation specialist, I'm an expert. Moshe Morris I will slam these people down. Moshe Morris And suddenly you'll start seeing your phone ring because your brand is now associated, not with real estate, not with real estate law. Moshe Morris We care about. Moshe Morris No, it's not about that. Moshe Morris It's suddenly we have an attribute that other people do not. Moshe Morris In this commoditized field. Moshe Morris Speak to me. Moshe Morris That is branding. Moshe Morris Now if you thought what I said was interesting here, keep in mind you're hearing this from a lawyer who doesn't do branding, do branding, but I'm not a branding specialist in the way that others are. Moshe Morris There are any number of people whose job it is to do branding. Moshe Morris And if you're wondering how you can actually hit your leads instead of you going ahead and establishing your website and finding your name, your three dots and Bottlenose when you're on my line, go through. Moshe Morris A branding exercise. Moshe Morris Figure out who you are. Moshe Morris Figure out the attributes you want to actually figure out the marketing scheme, put it all together, and then start. Moshe Morris Into your website and how you're going to present yourself. Moshe Morris Because marketing is a fundamental component of the lead generation, the lead generation and the conversion and the convey. Moshe Morris Version is critical to allowing for the ongoing supply of files, which gives you the sandpaper that you need to smooth down the block, which allows you to eventually make something of value. Moshe Morris That is what I would suggest. Avi Charney Brilliant, I like it somewhat related, but you know it could be from a marketing angle or a substantive angle. Avi Charney Is the idea of specialization now I do real estate and estates. Avi Charney You are a guy who is residential real estate and that is very clear. Avi Charney I'm sure that helps marketing in many ways but. Avi Charney Maybe you can talk about the pros and cons, benefits, advantages and disadvantages of specializing. Avi Charney And then I mean disadvantages. Avi Charney You have to refer out all the files that come to you for words, and I thank you. Avi Charney You send some to me, but what's really the advantage or disadvantage thereof of specializing verse being having multiple areas? Moshe Morris Well, eventually everyone becomes a specialist or they are not successful. Moshe Morris Eventually, and that doesn't mean you can't specialize more than one area, but eventually you specialize. Moshe Morris Look, the sad truth in life is that we get old and then we die and as we get old. Moshe Morris I'm I'm 45 years old. I had to remember what my age was. Actually there that shows you how old I am. Moshe Morris I'm 45 years old. I remember when I was twenty I remember how my brain functioned. I remember the neurons firing. Moshe Morris I was able to take on anything now. Moshe Morris Do you know how I compete with someone who has that 20 year old head experience? Moshe Morris Experience is simply the ability to continue to compete in the space against 20 year olds. Moshe Morris Properly by using shortcuts which are pretty much automation and that's the way human beings pretty much do everything right. Moshe Morris The reason that I'm able to drive better than someone who is 16 and is on the road is 'cause I've automated so many of the processes in my head so that when I'm turning right I do 17 things. Moshe Morris Without even knowing that I'm doing them, and as a result I'm able to be very successful. Moshe Morris And if you want to hire me as your driver, I'll probably be a more successful driver than someone who's starting out at 16, even though that 16 year old has a better head, has better firing neurons, and is more actively alert at all times and trying harder. Moshe Morris Right, that's the benefit of experience automation. Moshe Morris The benefit of specialization is ensuring that your experience can continue for a long period of time as you come across the vicissitude's and problems of age. Moshe Morris You know when you're 65 years old, you just don't have the head to compete head-to-head against the. Moshe Morris 20 year old you don't. Moshe Morris You do have the experience and your experience will route effort every single time. Moshe Morris Specialization allows us to continue to earn our incomes long into the future and is highly suggested, but more if you're successful in what you're doing. Moshe Morris Then really referring out files shouldn't matter to you at all. Moshe Morris I'm I'm busier than I can beat. Moshe Morris I have more files than I need. Moshe Morris The reason you get files. Moshe Morris The reason I the reason I give files the legal review. Moshe Morris The reason I I throw files off all the time is because I have too many to deal with to be. Moshe Morris In words, and that sounds like a great problem to have, and it's born again of 20 years. Moshe Morris Worth of experience. Moshe Morris But it's because of the specialization that I'm in that position and as a result it is not a problem to do if you've properly specialized and developed your expertise. Avi Charney Something on a more personal level, but also connected to this, is the idea of drive you've gone through at least a couple of failures. Avi Charney You've failures you've. Avi Charney Mentioned and also bringing in new clients every month new blood so to. Avi Charney Speak, it takes a lot of personal motivation and drive to keep it going. Avi Charney To keep accelerating and increasing in your practice and your productivity. Avi Charney Any personal tips about drive and motivation? Avi Charney As a lawyer. Moshe Morris Yeah, well, I mean I'm speaking to someone who's a father and I am a father and there's no better motivation than when you become a father or a mother or a parent. Speaker 1 Right? Moshe Morris Because you cease to work for yourself. Moshe Morris I mean, my work is not look, it's all well and good that we're all practicing law. Moshe Morris But what I'm doing is I'm earning a living for my family and there is no better. Moshe Morris Motivator than that. Moshe Morris So to be clear, if you are having these questions and say, how do I motivate myself and you haven't been up and you're not a parent yet, 'cause you're in your 20s. Moshe Morris Just be aware there is a motivating. Moshe Morris Kick that will come into your life unlike anything you've ever felt and that motivation drives many, many of us. Moshe Morris No question. Moshe Morris There's also the drive to be relevant. Moshe Morris You know, like and this is. Moshe Morris This is just pure pathos. Moshe Morris I guess this is this is pure ego and and and the like. Moshe Morris But you know? Moshe Morris You don't have very long on this planet. Moshe Morris There's 8 billion of us, and marking your existence within the timeline that presents itself, and within this universe. Moshe Morris Is fleeting at best. Moshe Morris And how do you do it? Moshe Morris Well, I don't know about you. Moshe Morris But I often think. Moshe Morris Legacy, like who am I? Thank you. Moshe Morris What am I doing? Moshe Morris How are my kids going to see me? Moshe Morris How does the profession see me? Moshe Morris That this matters. Moshe Morris It's not. Moshe Morris It's not just theoretical, it's it's. Moshe Morris It's something that that in a larger sense. Moshe Morris Motivates you. Moshe Morris And then on the individual level to be very. Moshe Morris Frank, after you. Moshe Morris Become good at things. Moshe Morris There's a lot of money. Moshe Morris Doing these things right, I don't want to pretend that I'm not in. Moshe Morris This for the money. Moshe Morris There is a ton of money in doing law, right? Moshe Morris Don't let anyone tell you there isn't. Moshe Morris There is, you have to understand your costs. Moshe Morris You have to understand your setups and everything. Moshe Morris Else but point. Moshe Morris Is it a good life once you get started and get rolling so there is something to the? Moshe Morris Idea and this is. Moshe Morris True where there is immediate compensation for your struggles? Moshe Morris I mean, it's unlike a job in so far as eating what you kill means eating immediately after you kill, and so when you go through a 15 file day and you're able to take the net of 15 files. Moshe Morris Home with you that night. Right? Moshe Morris That is a huge incentive to those people who are motivated by things like money. Moshe Morris I happen to be motivated by money. Moshe Morris I'm not going to be shy about it, it motivates me. Moshe Morris It drives me. Moshe Morris And then last there's a love of what you do. Moshe Morris I really do love the education. Moshe Morris I do love helping people. Moshe Morris I love building businesses. Moshe Morris I love coming up with ideas. Moshe Morris I love having and this is this for me is the big one. Moshe Morris I love having a stable source of revenue so I can explore other ideas, whether failures or not. Moshe Morris When I do my box on the IT failed OK fine but I'm still here and I'm going to do. Moshe Morris I'm doing the next business now because I have a stable income stream. Moshe Morris And that for me is a beautiful aspect of a sole practitioner ship. Moshe Morris If it's spinning cash. Moshe Morris So all of those. Moshe Morris Things are motivating facts. Avi Charney I mean there's a saying that a good leader creates followers and a great leader creates leaders. Avi Charney And I think you're you're a great leader 'cause you have many. Avi Charney You've created many leaders. Avi Charney Other such successful lawyers, and we've even had a discussion about the philosophy of hiring staff. Avi Charney I just hired my first staff. Avi Charney I'm in a growth mode. Avi Charney And I again emulated you and your model so you know it's all practitioners. Avi Charney I think need to hire eventually to grow. Avi Charney That's really the way to get out of your own drowning swimming pool. Avi Charney You have to be able to rely on other people as well. Avi Charney Talk about the philosophy of hiring and what you expect in your staff because I've found that. Avi Charney Quite revolutionary. Moshe Morris Sure, well I hope I'm answering your question directly in this, but First off I see staff is critical to success. Moshe Morris Building any business, whether it's a sole practitioner ship or not, requires building something bigger than yourself and by definition you cannot build something bigger than yourself. Moshe Morris If you have no staff. Moshe Morris Because it's entirely reliant on you and the moment you die, it's done. Moshe Morris This is not true of businesses that are able to routinize and really break down the process of what they do into individualized components. Moshe Morris Needs so the first staff and the 2nd. Moshe Morris Staff and the third. Moshe Morris Staff these are critical staff because they do a couple of things. Moshe Morris Firstly they establish culture. Moshe Morris Culture is not something the sole practitioner needs to worry about. Moshe Morris Culture is whatever it is you say it is. Moshe Morris When you wake up in the morning and if you feel bad, the culture of the firm is brought in that day. Moshe Morris And if you feel great, then the culture of the firm is just the best place in the world to work. Moshe Morris That's the definition of a sole practitioner. Moshe Morris When this whole practitioner brings in another, staff doesn't change too much, because if you think about it, you really have like the sun and what you're talking about is you're bringing in like a small little moon and the vicissitudes and the orbit that is caused by the moon doesn't really affect the gravitational. Moshe Morris Pull to sun. Moshe Morris You're still the center of the world, and if you want something to cheer up, you tell cheer up you tell him to buck up you tell him to do whatever it is, and if they don't improve no problem, you just get rid of the moon by by a different way. Moshe Morris This is very different than long term staff. Moshe Morris Senior staff and staff that eventually become more than one because the moment you have more than one staff. Moshe Morris There is a culture. Moshe Morris There's a dynamic that works in the dynamic exists as between the two staff and it exists as between yourself and the individual Staffs, and there's a dynamic that exists between yourself. Moshe Morris And both staff collectively as staff. Moshe Morris And when you have three, it becomes more complex. Moshe Morris And so on and so forth. Moshe Morris And it's critical as you hire your staff that you inculcate a culture that is respectful and open. Moshe Morris And when I say open, I. Moshe Morris Think I should just elaborate on? Moshe Morris That open means. Moshe Morris Open 2 Moshe Morris Open to inquiry and dialogue and mistakes. Moshe Morris Everyone is going to make mistakes, but people need to feel that they're in a supportive environment where mistakes are not going to be punished, but rather going to be corrected where they feel that their future is where they have a real future at the firm where they feel that there's a trajectory. Moshe Morris And all of these things. Moshe Morris There are things you need to build into. The staff. Moshe Morris My model is actually at this point is very simple. Moshe Morris Only hire and I'll just share mine and I'm starting something very small with my. Moshe Morris I didn't want to actually grow my law firm, but now I have. Moshe Morris Uhm, several staff and you know, then there's a bookkeeper and a bunch of other things as well, and so we're actually now becoming a bit of a substantive team. Moshe Morris We have, you know, about four or five people. Moshe Morris And so the real question is all right? Moshe Morris Well, how do you grow this culture? Moshe Morris And the first thing I do is I pay my staff. Moshe Morris Exceptionally well. Moshe Morris Now, this doesn't need to be what you do. Moshe Morris I'm not saying emulate this. Moshe Morris But I pay them exceptionally well way, way, way higher than scale. Avi Charney Well, what I was getting at more. Avi Charney Sorry to interrupt you was that you pay per production. Avi Charney It's not just that set fat salary. Avi Charney It's you have to approve, so that's really what I I like about it is that you make them produce in order to earn that fat salary. Moshe Morris I do well. Moshe Morris I was going to get. Moshe Morris To that now. Moshe Morris That's exactly where I was going, so I paid them very. Moshe Morris Very well, but I. Moshe Morris Pay them on a per file basis. Moshe Morris Now you could ask yourself, well, why do you not pay them on a per file basis? Moshe Morris And the reason I pay them on a per file basis more than anything else has to do with firm culture. Moshe Morris Exactly what we were just talking about because. Moshe Morris You see, it works like. Moshe Morris Real estate residential real estate has very busy months and then not so busy months may 31st is hell on Earth and it flows into June and July. Moshe Morris And that is 3 months of unmitigated hell when staff want to go ahead and go and party. Moshe Morris And because you know, sometimes you have young staff or whatever it is, or just take some time off and they've been cooped in all winter and everything else. Moshe Morris Now if you are. Moshe Morris Paying your staff a salary. Moshe Morris Then all and. Moshe Morris Let's say you've chosen $60,000 to pay your clerk, hypothetically $50,000, so you're starting out. Moshe Morris Let's say $45,000 to pay part. Your clerk is going to take on 30 files, and when you give them 35 files, they're going to groan when you give him 40 files. Moshe Morris They're going to say, oh God, now, by the way, you should never really be overloading your clerks, but overloads going to happen me saying you should never overload your clerk doesn't accord with the reality of a real estate. Moshe Morris Practice overload will happen even if you plan out. Moshe Morris Because there are these massive spikes in real estate volume on certain days and all firms kind of experience those spikes and go crazy with it. Moshe Morris Well, that in a salaried firm creates discord, it creates hardship. Moshe Morris Negative staff may very well look at experiences like that and start talking badly. Moshe Morris Go off this firm like it's just giving me so much work. Moshe Morris I'm overworked, it's destroying me. Moshe Morris But what if you paid your files? Moshe Morris Your clerks on a per file basis, and suddenly in the same way that real estate lawyers really financially like May 30? Moshe Morris First, what if your clerks really liked heard first? Moshe Morris What if suddenly the volumes did not become something which caused? Moshe Morris People to complain, but rather cause them to buckle down and get cracking. Moshe Morris Well, it so happens that the people I hire are hungry for. Moshe Morris They're hungry for funds. Moshe Morris Obviously that's just part of life where we're all like that. Moshe Morris But they also appreciate the fact that with hard work comes reward direct immediate. Moshe Morris And I would tell you as well that the way I pay my clerks is not monthly or weekly or biweekly. Moshe Morris I pay them hourly. Moshe Morris What I mean? Moshe Morris By that is this. Moshe Morris When they finish a file and report i.e. Moshe Morris Transfer right over to them right away when they report to the client. Moshe Morris They provide me with an invoice and I pay that invoice immediately. Moshe Morris Because every single file that they are closing has immediate reward. Moshe Morris We aren't much different than Pavlov and his dogs. Moshe Morris There is salvation and a bell that rings, and I'm talking about for me, as much as clerks. Moshe Morris I'm not talking about employees. Moshe Morris This is human. Moshe Morris It matters to me that I am getting paid at the end of the day, and if it matters to me, why would it not matter to my clerks? Moshe Morris Why would it not matter to my staff and thus they are paid at the end of the day? Moshe Morris So it's not only that I pay on a per. Moshe Morris File basis but. Moshe Morris I pay immediately on a per file basis and I pay a lot on a per file basis. Moshe Morris So that they are in this? Moshe Morris So that when they have 6 files that day and they're exhausted and they've gone through hell and they can't believe that they made it. Moshe Morris True, they have a bright point at the end of the day that caps it off where they suddenly see this money hit their account and they're like, Oh my God and they can pay for whatever it is that they want and they know it's directly tide to that hard work. Moshe Morris There is a psychology to this that makes a lot of sense. Moshe Morris So that is the system that I currently have. Moshe Morris My clerks love it and it means that I have been able to hire what I believe to be are the best clerks in the industry and it means that I don't need to worry about my quality holding me up. Moshe Morris When you're building a firm and I'm just going to mention this one last thing, sorry Abby, but but for quality purposes you should always be building a firm. Moshe Morris Whatever process you're putting in place that avoids in MBA, there's this. Moshe Morris This operational concept, called a bullwhip effect and the bullet band. Moshe Morris I think we mentioned this over over lunch to you. Moshe Morris Happy, but the bull of effect is the idea that. Moshe Morris Minor variations at the beginning of the process translate as like a whip into large scale variations further on. Moshe Morris If you have bad performing staff. Moshe Morris Then those might that what may seem like minor variation. Moshe Morris A problem here a problem there. Moshe Morris I forgot to put across this T well. Moshe Morris Suddenly, if the banks start writing you back as a residential lawyer and say, hey you forgot across this T, please file an amendment. Moshe Morris Well, OK, easily done. Moshe Morris What happens if that happens over and over and over and over again? Moshe Morris Suddenly a good portion of your time. Moshe Morris Is being taken up because you didn't have competent staff in the 1st. Moshe Morris It's competence is incredibly important and compensating people. Moshe Morris Is a really good way of properly compensating people properly? Moshe Morris Is a really good way of ensuring that you minimize the bulb effect, which is ultimately the purpose behind every structured business. Avi Charney I love it. Avi Charney I've learned so much from that attitude, not many bosses or employers come with that attitude. Avi Charney When you're again going to empower the staff and give them a piece of a piece of the game piece of the action, I think it really helps, and I've adopted that approach. Avi Charney So thank you again for sharing that with me. Avi Charney Now I mean to shift gears a little bit, we could do a whole podcast about this next question, but I'd like to if you can limit it to a few minutes 'cause we've already used up a lot of our time. Moshe Morris Yes, I'm sorry about that. Avi Charney Try try try now you're you're a great guest you you're talking a lot and that's that's great out of a guest. Avi Charney But let's try to limit this one. Avi Charney Maybe we'll have a follow up. Avi Charney Discussion with more about it, but what I want to know is a few horror stories that come to mind. Avi Charney You know, in real estate everyone has horror stories. Avi Charney For some reason, a transaction closing or not closing or whatever it is. Avi Charney Any sore thumbs that stick out to you. Avi Charney And again let's try keep it abbreviated. Moshe Morris Yeah, sure. Moshe Morris Well let me tell you about a screw up that wasn't my fault and then I'll. Moshe Morris Tell you about. Moshe Morris A script that. Moshe Morris Was it script? Moshe Morris It wasn't my fault. Moshe Morris My favorite personal story is that I. Moshe Morris We wired money to a segment liar. This is before the days of wire I couriered 785,000 certain dollars in certified funds to National Bank, which was two blocks away from my office and FedEx lost the certified check in a conveyor belt in Montreal and they were never able. Moshe Morris To find it again. Moshe Morris And as a result, $785,000 in cash went missing, and when I called up FedEx, they offered me $100 in compensatory payments for my troubles. Moshe Morris The way we. Moshe Morris Got around that was through the beauty that is insurance. Moshe Morris You want to talk about a screw up. Moshe Morris I'll tell you about a screw up screw up that is my fault and actually it speaks really to the problems that people are. Moshe Morris Going to have. Moshe Morris I once let Matland merge for those of you who aren't real estate lawyers, if in fact you have two parcels of the budding pieces of land, and in fact they're owned by the same party. Moshe Morris Land merge. Moshe Morris And and the reason I let Landon merge was not. Moshe Morris Because I was unaware of land merger, but rather because when you run a large firm, this happened at Accesslaw. Moshe Morris Process becomes everything. Moshe Morris Process, process, process process and without going into too much detail, even though we had set up a process. Moshe Morris The process failed and it failed because it wasn't set up properly, which happens all the time. Moshe Morris And accordingly. Moshe Morris Uhm, it resulted in a lawsuit by the way, everyone is sued in life. Moshe Morris This is a truism in the world, so that's not to say that. Moshe Morris You should want. Moshe Morris To be sued, but generally people get sued in life and unlike divorce which is very public, people seem to find shame in saying that they've been sued, and I don't really quite understand that it's it's. Moshe Morris It happens, it happens to people. Moshe Morris This is. Moshe Morris This is part of life. Moshe Morris Uhm, so the way we recovered I recovered in this instance through insurance. Moshe Morris It wasn't a major piece of merger, wasn't a big thing, but at the end of the day. Moshe Morris This was such a failure. Moshe Morris Born of my clerks, my clerks did not they. Moshe Morris They followed the process, but I had devised the wrong process for this particular way that land merge. Moshe Morris And as a result, particularly when I was running. Moshe Morris A larger firm. Moshe Morris The lesson was, you know, slow down and make sure that these processes that we have in place for what could be substantive problems are examined on a annual basis and make sure that the forms. Moshe Morris That we're asking people to fill out are current and up to date. Moshe Morris 'cause that led to some of the problems that we had, and I'm just pointing it out because everyone gets into trouble. Moshe Morris It's not a question of whether you're going to get into trouble. Moshe Morris You will. Moshe Morris The question is how you deal with that trouble when it rears its ugly head. Moshe Morris And you know how you fix? Moshe Morris So that it doesn't happen in the future. Avi Charney It's a nice way of dealing with it and happy it all worked out. Avi Charney At the end. Avi Charney 22 last questions for you. Avi Charney There's the second last one is. Avi Charney Do you have any favorite books that you like and recommend or live by? Moshe Morris I I'm I'm. Moshe Morris I'm reading a great book right now on Keynes. Moshe Morris Uhm, just one second, I'll just quickly. Moshe Morris Read it right now. Moshe Morris Right now I'm loving this book. Moshe Morris It's the price of peace, money, democracy, and the life of John Maynard Keynes and about the structure of World War Two and the global financial system, which I'm really enjoying. Moshe Morris But the book that, if I have to. Moshe Morris Think back to the book. Moshe Morris That kind of keeps me going that I've thought. Moshe Morris About for 20 years. Moshe Morris Sorry about that I have. Moshe Morris I have a dog who's decided. Moshe Morris He's going to bark a bit. Avi Charney He wants to join the podcast. Moshe Morris Yes indeed. Moshe Morris If I, if I have to think of a book that really kind of defined me that I've thought about that, I've chewed. Moshe Morris Over for many. Moshe Morris Many years I would say wisdom of the. Moshe Morris Crowds by James Earl wiki. Moshe Morris There is the idea, I'll just I'll entice you to read this, 'cause it's brilliant. Moshe Morris If you put a bunch of Jelly beans on a counter and turn to someone and say how many Jelly beans are there? Moshe Morris They can try to do all sorts of mathematical analysis, but truthfully, the best way of actually quickly figuring out how many Jelly beans are in that jar is by turning to a class of people of 100 people or more diverse group of people and saying how many Jelly beans are here and then they answer and they say, well. Moshe Morris Here everyone gives an answer. Moshe Morris You tally up that answer and divide by the number of. Moshe Morris And you will be right within about 1 degree wow. Moshe Morris And the reason for that the interesting part of that is well, individually, we don't know the answer. Moshe Morris But collectively we all do. Moshe Morris There's wisdom in the crowd, so long as you aggregate it properly and the reason, by the way, if you're wondering why that works, it's because everyone answer is the correct answer with a degree of error. Moshe Morris Right, and if you assemble enough people, the degrees of error cancelled themselves out, leaving only the right answer. Moshe Morris And you wouldn't think it works, but it works tremendously well. Moshe Morris The wisdom of the crowds, it's brilliant when you actually learn how to think about that and and, and that's it's to some degree. Moshe Morris It's basic statistics, but again, being lawyers were never forced to take statistics statistics, so it's actually a really good thing to kind of. Moshe Morris Contemplate and think of. Avi Charney Very cool, thanks for that suggestion. Avi Charney And when you mentioned the wisdom of the crowds, I think of the Facebook groups that you've got all these hundreds of lawyers or or Realtors real estate profession. Avi Charney Channels there's multiple different groups also, but where you can post a question and get 100 different lawyers looking and answering and providing the input, it really puts us in all a better position, so that's that's that's my comment about that last question. Avi Charney I'll, I'll leave you with is just a general bit of advice to law students. Avi Charney Let's say it's the last day of your rice. Avi Charney And class or? Avi Charney You know you're talking to a bunch of young lawyers. Avi Charney What wise words you want to leave us. Moshe Morris With yes I will. Moshe Morris It is very normal to feel that your life and your career is falling apart three or four years out from law school. Moshe Morris It is an incredibly normal part of the process. Moshe Morris It takes most people, not saying everyone. Moshe Morris This is obviously just generalized advice. Moshe Morris It takes most people five years before they actually expand this direction, and 10 years before they become good at what they do and being lost early in your career is part of that process. Moshe Morris So many people I speak to are lost. Moshe Morris I remember when I was lost. Moshe Morris Chalk it up and understand that that is part of the process and it will make that feeling of being lost more palpable. Moshe Morris More contextualized and something that you can more readily deal with, and that would be my best suggestion to you, as you kind of approach the world. Avi Charney Thank you, Marsha. Avi Charney You are a great friend. Avi Charney You are a great lawyer, a great mentor. Avi Charney And you should keep it up. Avi Charney I look forward to many more discussions with you and continued our continued friendship. Moshe Morris I do appreciate that Abby and I would just mention as a final note that I do watch your podcasts and I enjoy them tremendously. Moshe Morris I love the people. Moshe Morris You take on and I I feel. Moshe Morris Very honored to. Moshe Morris Actually be part of the esteemed lineup. Moshe Morris That we've actually been able to round up. Avi Charney Thank you, you're actually the youngest guest by far, but I I respect you so much that. Avi Charney I thought I'd get you in. Moshe Morris I do appreciate that. Moshe Morris Thank you so much, Avi. Avi Charney Thank you, Moshe.