Audio file Marie audio 1.mp3 Transcript Avi Charney Mary Hennen, thank you so much for joining me as a real honor to speak to you. Avi Charney You're one of the. Avi Charney Leading criminal defense lawyers in the country. Avi Charney Very widely known and respected I've come across you throughout my life and I'll explain about how, but just for starters, I usually ask my guests too. Avi Charney Talk a bit about their background. Avi Charney Now I've read your book and I'll take this opportunity to plug your book and say it was a as the great. Avi Charney Read and I'll try not to repeat what you've already written because it goes into a lot of detail about your background, so we'll kind of use this as a springboard more than give you the opportunity to go from there and not necessarily repeat what's there. Avi Charney But for anyone who wants. Avi Charney To know about your background, I strongly suggest. Avi Charney You read the book. Avi Charney Now I want to start. Avi Charney In fact, by asking about your introduction to Eddie Greenspan, my my almost an immigrant to Canada. Avi Charney I came in high school and one. Avi Charney Of my first. Avi Charney I guess experiences or exposures to a. Avi Charney Lawyer was that there was a. Avi Charney Kid a year older than me who was? Avi Charney Just got his license. Avi Charney I don't know if it was his full. Avi Charney License or or whatever, but he took. Avi Charney His parents car and there may have been alcohol involved. Avi Charney He landed up crashing into a cop and there was so much talk in the school about how this. Avi Charney Kids life is going to be ruined and then one kid hushed everyone up and said he's going to be fine. Avi Charney He just hired Eddie Greenspan to defend him, so you know that actually worked out. Avi Charney And I know the the sky landed. Avi Charney Having you know, getting through it and now he's a successful person that was behind them. Avi Charney But I mean that was one of my first exposures to a lawyer to Eddie Greenspan in Canada. Avi Charney He had such a reputation of a good criminal defense lawyer. Avi Charney So in your book you say your first exposure to him was when he called at 11:00 PM. Avi Charney Rocco at at the firm. Avi Charney And that was your first really introduction to him. Avi Charney So after that I want to know what was your first meeting with Eddie and Mark Rosenberg like you know, was it a grueling interview? Avi Charney Or once you were in the firm, how how did they treat you from the get go? Marie Henein No, there there was no interview. Marie Henein I mean Eddie was not going to sit there and and spend time waste his time talking to me about my background. Marie Henein It would have been, and I know the clear recollection. Marie Henein It was straight to work, really it was, you know, here's the assignment. Marie Henein Here's what I'm doing. Marie Henein Here's what I need you to do and you get going. Marie Henein It you didn't start by developing a personal relationship in that firm, it became that because you work so hard you spend so much time and in the course of the life of a case which is so profoundly stressful. Marie Henein Obviously you know your discover whether you have similarities, whether you have the same. Marie Henein Sense of humor and all of that and that developed, but it wasn't the starting point. Marie Henein The starting point was get to work and and. Marie Henein You know help the clients and that's that's initially what it was. Marie Henein Mark was much quieter. Marie Henein Uhm, more reserved. Marie Henein You know, often would not interact with articling students until several months into it, but had a wicked sense of humor. Marie Henein He was a really, really funny person. Marie Henein Incredibly warm. Marie Henein Both of them did. Marie Henein Eddie was just incredible incredibly funny. Marie Henein Person and and you know, Mark had to warm up to you. Marie Henein And ultimately, did you know both became very important figures in my life, not only when I was there, but after I left I, I continued to have a close relationship with both or what I would say is a close relationship. Marie Henein I spoke to them frequently, would get together. Marie Henein So it it continued beyond beyond that. Marie Henein But there's no question that the bond, which was also a part of what we would discuss constantly with law. Marie Henein We we were people who loved law, loved cases, loved gossip about cases. Marie Henein I mean that that. Marie Henein Was the main one of the main topics of conversation for us always? Avi Charney Incredible, and I mean one of the points of this podcast is so we can all learn from the best lawyers out there and in your opinion, in your perspective, what really made Eddie and Mark such good lawyers? Avi Charney I mean, there's a lot of smart people out there. Avi Charney There's a lot of committed lawyers out there who cared for their clients. Avi Charney What was really that added? Avi Charney Added value that made him the best, so to speak. Marie Henein Well, I I think they had different qualities that I've I I wrote about that I think for Eddie. Marie Henein First of all, I was a big fan before I went there and he was the only person I wanted to work with and he was the person that I believed sort of really captured what? Marie Henein I thought a criminal lawyer defense lawyer should be in terms of the quality into that. Avi Charney It says what's gonna go if it's. Marie Henein Well, if fearless. Marie Henein Resolute committed to their client. Marie Henein Smart, intellectually rigorous, a lover of the law. Marie Henein None of this was from the hit, so you know, I think people have no understanding actually or very little understanding that what they were seeing in court. Marie Henein When Eddie you know did a brilliant cross examination that there was a great deal of work that went into that. Marie Henein That was not impromptu. Marie Henein He was not a person who stood up and cross examined all. Marie Henein Could and could do brilliant cross examinations, but he was far more thoughtful, far more strategic, far more forensic than than people could understand. Marie Henein When you see the final final product, the one thing that he had, I think one of many qualities that I think distinguished him. Marie Henein Was an extraordinary. Marie Henein Extraordinary instinct for people and the moment and a cross examination. Marie Henein He really had a feel for the witness. Marie Henein And you know, those rare moments. Marie Henein Those are the moments where you see sort of brilliant advocacy. Marie Henein Uhm, because he had an instinct of how to go or where to go with the witness, he could feel where he thought he. Marie Henein Could get a witness to admit purging themselves over and over again, and that was not scripted that was not prepared. Marie Henein Those were moments that you you just you felt intuitively and so. Marie Henein There is a. Marie Henein There's an extraordinary amount of work, but then there's this component. Marie Henein That's natural ability. Marie Henein You know he had an extraordinary voice. Marie Henein He had an extraordinary presence in court. Marie Henein You wanted to listen to him. Marie Henein You wanted to look at him. Marie Henein So he held a room that is that's not manufactured. Marie Henein That's just who he was. Marie Henein He had that that personality. Marie Henein For Mark, Mark was an incredibly. Marie Henein A special mix of an appellate lawyer who had a real understanding of how a trial played out. Marie Henein So, notwithstanding that he was not a trial lawyer, you know to be an effective appellate advocate, you have to understand what is happening in a courtroom, the nuances of it, the import of it, because when it's on paper, it sort of loses. Marie Henein It's it's texture and context. Marie Henein He had that intuitively he approached everything in a way that. Marie Henein Was the way the law should be that a reasonable person would approach it that an empathetic person would approach it? Marie Henein He just always sounded so reasonable that you know when he was appearing before before the appellate courts. Marie Henein There's such high regard for him, but I I think the one thing I want to stress for anybody who's listening, particularly lawyers. Marie Henein And young lawyers, is that as litigators? Marie Henein Whether you were a trial litigator or an appellate litigator. Marie Henein Eddie and Mark had grounded and always grounded all their litigation in the law. Marie Henein They did not go into a case and just sort of think about the laws and decide, you know you structured your cross examination. Marie Henein Or you structured your defense of the case on the law like it was based on what you could do in cross what? Marie Henein You can, do you know the substantive elements of it? Marie Henein And you would always start there. Marie Henein There was no case we did that didn't have multiple legal memos that had been generated for Eddie to look at different components of it. Marie Henein So the architecture of the defense of the case or the architecture of an appellate case. Marie Henein Requires you to to frame it in that context and it's really important for people to understand that. Marie Henein I think it's self evident when you're litigating in an appellate context. Marie Henein I do not think it's self evident when you're in a trial court and so. Marie Henein People should know that we spend a great deal of. Marie Henein I'm in every single case, every single case discussing the law, educating ourselves about the law, framing the case within the legal boundaries, and that as mark always used to say, made it virtually impossible to appeal from a case that Eddie had litigated because he'd raised everything. Marie Henein It wasn't as though. Marie Henein You would think of it on appeal. Marie Henein He had done it. Marie Henein He had set up a record and he had canvassed all issues that that is, you know, an important quality for people to understand in terms of. Marie Henein All the things that went into making them, you know, the great lawyers. Marie Henein That they were. Avi Charney I mean with both of them. Avi Charney With those descriptions you mentioned intuition, they both had this intuition so. Avi Charney Do you think? Avi Charney Skills cross examination skills are it you? Avi Charney Know, but you're. Avi Charney Born with it. Avi Charney You have it or something that could be learned. Marie Henein It's a combination. Marie Henein I think you can learn a great deal of it. Marie Henein I I think you can. Marie Henein It is forensic. Marie Henein I think there is a process and a way to develop your cross examination skills that will make you a great cross examiner you know will it make you the top five of history? Marie Henein Probably not, because when you then. Marie Henein Add to that. Marie Henein The innate skill, the innate presence, your instinct. Marie Henein Those are things that are definitely just talents that you're you're, you have, and that are part of your makeup, so you know you might not have those incredible dazzling moments. Marie Henein But you will have a lot of great moments. Marie Henein You will be. Marie Henein Very, very good at what you do. Marie Henein Sure, you can learn to do it forensically, absolutely it is it isn't. Marie Henein It is something that you can study. Right? Avi Charney My favorite line in your whole book. Avi Charney I wanted to read and this is the only sentence I'll read in the book. Avi Charney Just just this one. Avi Charney Eddie wasn't looking for indentured servitude, but rather for unwavering commitment to the work and the office to the exclusion of everything else. Avi Charney Is that required? Avi Charney Being a criminal lawyer or being a lawyer in general, how much? Avi Charney Commitment is required or, you know, millennials. Avi Charney My generation is a bit more balanced. Avi Charney Let's say you know, do you? Avi Charney Do you have the same expectations of your staff being there till 11 AM 11:00 PM oh. Avi Charney No, I don't think it's about. Marie Henein Requirements right, it's about what you want out of your life. Marie Henein It's about what you where you place your priorities. Marie Henein And everybody structures those. Marie Henein Those deeply personal priorities differently, right? Marie Henein So you can choose not to work in an office like that because it doesn't give you satisfaction and joy, and it doesn't give you the fulfillment. Marie Henein So what you put in your not getting out? Marie Henein Is sort of an equal measure, so. Marie Henein Look, there is no. Marie Henein Rule as to how you should. Marie Henein Of your life, there is no rule as to the type of practice you have to have. Marie Henein You can practice criminal law in a variety of different places and in in different for prosecution for defense different firms. Marie Henein You can hang up your own shingle. Marie Henein Well, and that is true of law in general, so there's no one way I I understand that. Marie Henein And you know whether it's millennials or a different approach, that's fine, but for me, you know Eddie wasn't doing that because because of some overarching value, it was 'cause he loved it, right? Marie Henein That's what's. Marie Henein Driving it if you do not love it, you probably shouldn't be doing it. Marie Henein But if you love something you want to do more of it, you want to do it constantly and it's a passion, right? Marie Henein The same. Marie Henein Say that you know a painter doesn't sleep 'cause they're painting all night constantly. Marie Henein You wouldn't say, geez, that would you require to be a really good painter? Marie Henein You have to. Marie Henein Work that hard. Marie Henein Is because they're passionate about it, and so for him you know, for. Marie Henein For mark. Marie Henein For me, I love it. Marie Henein I love what I do. Marie Henein I am engaged emotionally. Marie Henein And mentally by the work. Marie Henein So that's why I'm there at 10 or 11. Marie Henein That's why Eddie was there, he loved it. Marie Henein It wasn't 'cause. Marie Henein You know he wasn't there to to make you work hard just because he. Marie Henein Wanted to see you suffer he. Marie Henein Was there because he loved what he was doing and he understood what it took? Marie Henein And and you don't have to do it, you don't do it. Nobody's forcing you to. I mean, you can choose to live your life in whatever way and whatever calibration works for you. Marie Henein So that was his. Marie Henein It's it's, you know it was mine. Marie Henein That's why it. Marie Henein Worked for me I I loved it. Marie Henein I I didn't. Marie Henein I didn't want to be anywhere else I I didn't did I care if I was. Marie Henein Missing family events. Marie Henein No, I wasn't sitting there feeling sad about it. Marie Henein I was loving what I was doing. Marie Henein You know? Marie Henein I'm not saying it's not a grind. Marie Henein Often it's it's a grind. Marie Henein It's hard. Marie Henein That's why it's called. Marie Henein At work. Marie Henein But as my mother, you know reminded me of recently about two weeks into the my article and I called her and I said this is my place. Marie Henein This is where I want to be like. Marie Henein I found the place I need to because this was the thing that was so fascinating to me. Marie Henein So you know the rest of it. Marie Henein I was prepared to pay a price. Marie Henein For that I was prepared to pay. Marie Henein A personal price for that as well. Marie Henein That was my choice would have forced it on me. Marie Henein I could have left so. Avi Charney Right, right, yeah you. Avi Charney Were there for, I think, 11 years. Avi Charney It's a it's a long time. Avi Charney Any specific things that you can say you learn from there or just a bit of everything? Marie Henein Oh well, I mean some the the practice of law is what I learned there. Marie Henein How to be a lawyer? Marie Henein You know you come in with certain innate abilities, right? Marie Henein There are many people that went through that firm. Marie Henein For me it was the right environment for me. Marie Henein It allowed me to have access to people who I. Marie Henein Believe or extraordinary lawyers who had the skills that I was wanting to develop. Marie Henein You know, I I wasn't there to imitate or replicate, but I was there to learn and so talk about one on one mentoring. Marie Henein What is better than preparing a trial and then seeing Eddie execute the Cox examination? Marie Henein I mean I wasn't sitting there like who I'm gonna log. Marie Henein I was watching what he was doing. Marie Henein I was wondering why he went this way as opposed to. Marie Henein You know he turned left instead of right? Marie Henein And then I would discuss it with him it. Marie Henein Asked like why did you do that? Marie Henein How did you know how? Marie Henein To do that? Marie Henein How did you know to deal? Marie Henein With the witness in that way, or you know, why didn't you go here? Marie Henein Here you know there was a moment for me many, many years into it, where as I was watching it, I could feel like I was lockstep with him in the sense that it was intuitive what the next move was, you know. Marie Henein And when you get there at that moment for me, I felt OK. Marie Henein I've got this now. Marie Henein I've got it enough to be able to be doing it on my own. Marie Henein But I was I was watching everything. Marie Henein I was consuming all of it and and. Marie Henein Just obsessed with it, I wanted to know how. Marie Henein Mark would prepare his oral arguments for. Marie Henein The Court of Appeal. Marie Henein So I'd ask him. Marie Henein I would go look at his notes even. Marie Henein When he wasn't. Marie Henein In the office, I'd sort of sneak in when. Marie Henein I knew he had an. Marie Henein Appeal the next day and I but like I'd look at what have you done with the case book? Marie Henein What have you done with the facts and how have you drafted your notes? Marie Henein I wanted to know the mechanics. Marie Henein Of it, I wanted to. Marie Henein Know the thought behind it. Marie Henein So you know it, it wasn't it. Marie Henein Wasn't punishment for me. Marie Henein I was loving what I was doing. Marie Henein And learning right? Avi Charney So I mean, it sounds like it was great experience to to have those mentors and to. Avi Charney Be there for all that time. Avi Charney I mean, putting yourself in the shoes of other junior partners and lawyers at firms. Avi Charney You said how you were capable enough to go on your own. Avi Charney And you were kinda. Avi Charney You're right, in the book, ready to spread your own wings. Avi Charney But can you go into a bit more of that thought process about when someone is perhaps ready or not ready to go on their own? Avi Charney Leave a comfortable firm, a good firm and and hang out their own shingle. Avi Charney Is there any factors there? Marie Henein No, they're I. Marie Henein I mean, I'm the last person to ask about that, because if you read my. Marie Henein Book, you know it's virtually. Marie Henein It was a decision I made over the weekend. Marie Henein I just decided it was time for me to go. Marie Henein I had always wanted to have my own firm. Marie Henein I'd always wanted to be first on the letterhead. Marie Henein My name means a great deal to me being female and. Marie Henein Leading was a very important thing to me personally. Marie Henein I wanted to see how far I could go and whether I would fail or succeed I I didn't know there was no great. Marie Henein Plan in terms of how I would do this there. Marie Henein There was actually zero planning on my part. Marie Henein Probably not good advice. Marie Henein Probably not the way you should do it. Marie Henein But on one hand you know being a little bit fearless, having some perspective, because in this profession you're not going to be a popper, you're going to be able to make. Marie Henein Living your if it fails, there are lots of other positions you can get. Marie Henein It's not as though you know we are suffering in the way that many people who have a lot less opportunity and flexibility in changing their their jobs. Marie Henein Uhm, do and that's the the majority of people, so you know as lawyers we've got a lot of a pretty wide berth in terms of the types of practices we can have and so that gives you also the opportunity to take some risk. Marie Henein And you know, it's a it's a risk. Marie Henein That's a measured and calculated risk because you've got a degree. Marie Henein You've got a profession. Marie Henein That you always have, so whether it's. Marie Henein Your own shingle or at a large firm or whatever. Marie Henein There are many, many options, and. Marie Henein So I think being. Marie Henein A little bit fearless is is helpful. Avi Charney Right, absolutely so. Avi Charney During my research reading about you for this interview. Avi Charney Also one of those early days in Canada. Avi Charney As I arrived we came from South Africa where there was crime and murder and all that we came to Canada, Toronto, one of the safest places in the world and within a short time of us arriving. Avi Charney There was the Mattie Baranowsky murder. Avi Charney Yeah, and I discovered that you were. Avi Charney A defense counsel. Avi Charney Over there and I remember my father driving. Avi Charney Us to school. Avi Charney And saying what we left South Africa and we come here and we. Avi Charney We have this in the the neighborhood. Avi Charney Why did we leave South Africa to? Avi Charney Come to. Avi Charney This what I discovered is there was the first case that. Avi Charney Eddie gave you when you run in. Avi Charney Your own he gave you that case too. Avi Charney To run with that, I was curious why why that case? Avi Charney Why did he decide out? Avi Charney Of all the. Avi Charney Cases to give you that one and. Marie Henein Uh, yeah I was running that case. Marie Henein It was a legal aid murder case, so I was doing it at the preliminary inquiry stage. Marie Henein So it was a case that I was counseled on. Marie Henein And and so it's sort of he he was fine to have it follow me. Marie Henein And that's sort of the the the totality of that. Marie Henein It was just that it had come into the office originally. Marie Henein And I started with it and had done the preliminary inquiry and the expectation was I was going to do the trial. OK. Avi Charney Uhm, maybe this is what you learned from the Greenspan days. Avi Charney Maybe you've developed your own policy on when do you decline a file? Avi Charney How do you decide whether to take or decline a file? Marie Henein No, I I have developed my own policy. Marie Henein Yeah again, I think it's deeply personal. Marie Henein You know there are some lawyers that choose that. Marie Henein They they decide that they want to do certain type of work. Marie Henein There's nothing wrong with that. Marie Henein As a criminal lawyer, there are other lawyers that will take it all. Marie Henein There are other lawyers that define it based on interest levels, so you know for me there are a. Marie Henein Lot of different factors. Marie Henein As to when I will and will not take a case on and part of it at this level. Marie Henein At this age, you know in my career part of it is interest. Marie Henein It's a significant portion of it is that if I'm interested in it. Marie Henein If it's a big fight, I generally like it. Marie Henein You you know if it's a client that I think I can work with, I think that's very important. Marie Henein The dynamic between you and your your client. Marie Henein I won't work for clients that I find won't take advice and just think you're a mouthpiece. Marie Henein As a lawyer and that I'm just supposed to be, you know, following instructions like a robot that's not going to happen, so that wouldn't be a good environment or a good dynamic. Marie Henein And I would not act for clients that I feel that that's what their expectation is. Marie Henein I will send them to lawyers that can work well with that type of person. Marie Henein So that's a very significant factor for me, so it's not driven by the offense. Marie Henein It's not driven by the. Marie Henein It's often driven by interest, but significantly is it a client that I feel that it'll be productive because? Marie Henein You know your client has to have confidence in you and you have to be able to work with your client. Marie Henein Otherwise, it's, you know the war that you're going into, which is you've got enough people coming at you. Marie Henein And you've got enough things that you have to deal with and fight for. Marie Henein For your client, you do not need to be fighting with your client as well, it just doesn't work for me. Avi Charney Fair enough. Avi Charney Uhm, cooperative clients or or go a long way. Avi Charney Do you regret ever taking on a file? Marie Henein Or if. Avi Charney I mean just to just to say I spoke to Alan Dershowitz in the past and he says he regrets ever getting involved with Epstein. Avi Charney Now you don't have anything as controversial as that, but anything you wish you wouldn't have taken on. Marie Henein I think there are allegations against Mr. Marie Henein Dershowitz so that that's there a fair point of regret. Avi Charney Yes, yeah. Marie Henein I understand. Marie Henein No, I don't. Avi Charney OK. Avi Charney Do you think about your reputation at all when taking on a client? Marie Henein I haven't been charged with a crime, so no, my reputation is intact. Avi Charney Right? Avi Charney OK. Marie Henein I mean, if you're thinking those things. Marie Henein You probably should be doing a case, right? Avi Charney Right? Marie Henein That that's true, so. Marie Henein If I'm thinking about myself and representing someone, that's a good sign that probably I'm not a good lawyer for them, and that's fine. Marie Henein But if you're not able to check yourself and take yourself out of it, 'cause you're not about the, it's not the case. Marie Henein It's not about. Marie Henein You and you can't be objective and forensic and neutral, and you are engaging with these other considerations. Marie Henein Then it's not good for you. Marie Henein Shouldn't do it. Avi Charney I mean. Avi Charney Having said that, I think criminal lawyers are the most altruistic part of our profession. Avi Charney The they there's a lot of giving there being there for other people. Avi Charney I mean I do estates in real estate, it's a bit more. Avi Charney Transactional if you will not as much civil liberties on the line, so I really respect criminal. Avi Charney Lawyers, the work they do. Marie Henein Well, thank you. Marie Henein I mean it is. Marie Henein It is definitely not transactional because everything is on the line. Marie Henein You know there is and I understand where money is on the line and it's your livelihood that that's also can be profoundly meaningful. Marie Henein And in family law, it's it's. Marie Henein It's very difficult. Marie Henein I get all that, but dealing particularly with criminal law it is. Marie Henein You know when you say everything is on the line that is not an understatement. Marie Henein You know your job is on the line, your freedom is on the line, your family is all access to your families on the line. Marie Henein Often everything is on the line. Marie Henein You know you started this podcast talking about this young boy charged with a crime in high school. Marie Henein And what's the first thought you know the first thought was his life, so that is correct. Marie Henein That is what people think. Marie Henein That is, in fact, very much how you feel. Marie Henein And that is what you are dealing with when you are representing. Marie Henein People and you know, we represent also victims of crime in our in. Marie Henein Our office so. Marie Henein We that is not unusual criminal lawyers routinely represent victims of crime. Marie Henein And you know, it's it's all of that is is very, very emotionally fraught. Marie Henein And and you're dealing with people that are at the one of the lowest points in their lives, so you know to be representing someone and thinking. Marie Henein How is this going to impact me? Marie Henein It, and it's not that you don't that that can happen. Marie Henein You at that point you just gotta say, OK, well, I'm I'm considering things that aren't about my client, and so this is not for a lot of reasons, just not a good case for me to be doing. Avi Charney Absolutely, I mean. Avi Charney There's been some interesting things with some of your cases you mentioned representing victims, why. Avi Charney Why would a victim need a lawyer? Avi Charney And also in as I think one of your cases, the witnesses hired lawyers. Avi Charney Why would a witness need a lawyer or a victim? Avi Charney Need a lawyer in a criminal case? Avi Charney What explain that a bit please? Marie Henein Well, first of all. Marie Henein I I also do civil cases, but uhm. Marie Henein For victims who are navigating the process, for example, they often feel it that it is helpful to have an independent lawyer whose obligation is only to them to a explaining the process to navigate them through the process, to liaise with the police or the crown. Marie Henein People will come to you when they want advice about what their options are. Marie Henein For example, should I report to the police? Marie Henein Should I sue this person? Marie Henein What is the advice and what are the results of the different processes so? Marie Henein You will. Marie Henein Represent them there. Marie Henein In certain cases you have standing to litigate certain issues like third party records, where a victim, a witness has actual standing to have counsel and make submissions. Marie Henein In civil cases, we and I have represented victims. Marie Henein In allegations against individuals of sexual abuse, I mean, no, we're involved. Marie Henein We were involved in the Weinstein case representing victims. Marie Henein So there is and others that obviously are never made public, so there's a lot of reasons that people in the justice system, whether they're accused or victims or witnesses, need assistance. Avi Charney So if bunch other questions, yeah, one is a in the sentencing phase. Avi Charney Daniel Kahneman, a behavioral psychologist, wrote a book and he started off by saying it's a book called Noise. Avi Charney And how in the sentencing phase in America there's too much discrepancy so. Avi Charney What would appear on paper to be identical crimes? Avi Charney Have sentencing variations of let's say 3 to 7 years and some two people could be convicted of exactly the same crime on paper and one have a three year sentence in one of a seven year. Avi Charney Do you have any comments about the discrepancy or variation in sentencing? Marie Henein Absolutely, the crime may be the same, but the person committing the crime isn't the same. Marie Henein The circumstances are never the same, and individuality discretion in sentencing is a value. Marie Henein It's not a negative. Marie Henein We cannot treat all people the same because they're not all the same. Marie Henein Their experiences are not the same. Marie Henein You know, in the United States they had the sentencing guidelines, which was effectively mechanical formula as to what your sentence should be. Marie Henein It didn't matter what your background is, didn't matter if you were, you know, high on drugs when it happened. Marie Henein Whether you're an. Marie Henein Addict whether you have a lousy background. Marie Henein Whether you've had check, none of that matter, you just get the same. Marie Henein And you know that creates a lot of inequality, actually. Marie Henein That that that that fosters. Marie Henein A complete lack of humanity in the. Marie Henein Criminal justice system. Marie Henein And ultimately, they've deviated from the sentencing guidelines, although they provide still guidance in the United States. Marie Henein But discretion is a positive. Marie Henein It's not a negative, and so I think it's it's pretty superficial to say, well person, it's the same crime, so they should all get. Marie Henein The same effects you know you can both steal $1000. Marie Henein But if I'm stealing $1000 to support a gambling habit or I'm still $1000 to feed my kids, this is a different set of circumstances. Marie Henein It's the same crime, but it's a different set of circumstances and I think we would all agree that you don't get the same sentence in those cases that. Marie Henein I should look at. Marie Henein What your experience is in Canada? Marie Henein We have glad to do reports which deal with the indigenous experience life experience, which is a huge. Marie Henein Contributor and a huge factor that statutorily courts are required to take into account. Marie Henein So yes, for example, an indigenous offender may not get the same sentence as somebody else. Marie Henein They might get a lesser sentence. Marie Henein There is nothing wrong with that. Marie Henein That is in fact correct and humane and individualized. Marie Henein And the justice system, while has to be evenhanded. Marie Henein And while it has to be objective, it is wrong to equate that with same sameness. Marie Henein Is not objectivity. Marie Henein Sameness is not. Marie Henein Impartial so you can be objective you can be impartial but you can also be humane and you can be empathetic and you can be individualized in your application of those principles. Marie Henein So I mean I couldn't disagree more strongly about that attitude. Avi Charney Yeah, I I agree with you the way you described it there today must be room for individual differences, but I think that was based on trying to eliminate the racial issues there that certain backgrounds kind of attract higher or lower sentences. Avi Charney I think that's the where it came from. Avi Charney The sentencing guidelines. Avi Charney But you know within that, no. Marie Henein Well, no, but I. Marie Henein Agree with that. Marie Henein I understand the point, which is that you know racialized accused and we can see this both in Canada and the United States. Marie Henein The over incarceration. Marie Henein Of Black Americans of Indigenous Canadians is shocking. Marie Henein There's no question they get sentenced, charged more frequently, policed more active. Marie Henein Lovely and sentenced more harshly. Marie Henein The answer isn't we'll give the white guy the same sentence. Marie Henein The answer is, there's a problem, right? Marie Henein That if sentencing is racialized, if justice is racialized, increasing sentences doesn't help, I promised you the only people that will suffer will be once again, the people that are marginalized. Marie Henein So I understand the problem. Marie Henein But the problem is who's doing the sentencing? Marie Henein The problem is who's doing the policing? Marie Henein The problem is the lack of discretion. Marie Henein When you had mandatory minimums in the United States and the three strikes rule right that equalizes, who do you think suffered most that's responsible for mass incarceration, so look, there's a lot of theories about how to deal with it. Marie Henein But I do not think standardized sentencing is going to near to the benefit of the people who are at the short end of the stick in the in the criminal justice system I. Marie Henein Just don't. Avi Charney We're touching upon justice over here, and I've heard you describe justice as the right to a hearing to A to a trial, and. Avi Charney And that's almost the extent of it. Avi Charney Having said that, have you experienced you have any you know baggage about injustices that you've seen or witnessed in your in your life here in Canada? Marie Henein Well, we know we have because we have numerously numerous wrongfully convicted. Marie Henein And individuals that have subsequently been exonerated. Marie Henein So we know that you know, we know we've had a forensic pathologist that that that that resulted in many, many people going to jail and being convicted of murder or pleading to murder when they should not have been. Marie Henein That's Doctor Smith in Ontario, so we know there are injustices we know daily. Marie Henein There are injustices because. Marie Henein We've got a. Marie Henein Ridiculously racialized incarcerated population, it's it's. Marie Henein It's heavily weighted by race. Marie Henein So we know those injustices occur, you know, and when? Marie Henein When I said, that's all you're entitled to, it's not that you're entitled to just a hearing it. Marie Henein It's sort of of it's somewhat dismissive being phrased that way what you're entitled to is an impartial judge what you're entitled to is objectivity. Marie Henein What you're entitled to is a right to be heard. Marie Henein And you say we say these things because we live with them and we assume them, but in so many can. Marie Henein Trees, what I am saying right now is aspirational. Marie Henein I can give you list chapter and verse where the idea if I were to say to you I mean where I come from. Marie Henein When you you talk to people, often from the Middle East, you say, well, you're. Marie Henein Going to have a fair hearing. Marie Henein They're stunned by it. Marie Henein They don't think so. Marie Henein They think that someone is paying the judge, 'cause that's what you do in a lot of countries. Marie Henein Someone paying the prosecutor the. Marie Henein That is, that is the way people live. Marie Henein There is no access to to a just resolution of disputes, so it's not nothing, it's everything right? Marie Henein And and when you. Marie Henein See incursions into that, whether they be political or so. Marie Henein Social when people are trying to interfere and put pressure on on courts to come to certain decisions, well, that's where when it's being threatened when we should be really careful about that. Marie Henein So it's not. Marie Henein Nothing like it is. Marie Henein A very, very significant gift to democratic society into this country. Marie Henein That you have an objective, impartial judiciary and independent bar and the opportunity to be heard. Marie Henein That's what you get. Marie Henein You're not guaranteed to win no one if we're guaranteeing people wins and we're guaranteeing results. Marie Henein And we're guaranteeing people that they will be believed no matter what, and they will. Marie Henein That's the end of it. Marie Henein Then we're not talking about the system that we have. Marie Henein We're talking about something very different. Avi Charney Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Avi Charney I feel also honored to be part of such a respectable legal system over here in Canada. Avi Charney So the pace of change in in criminal law and now in estates and real estate. Avi Charney The pace of change is like I would say, once a decade or something there's there's a change. Avi Charney Yeah, tell me about the pace of change in criminal law and one of the big ones. Marie Henein It is, well, all. Marie Henein I mean constant, it is rapid fire. Marie Henein It is really, really part of your life. Marie Henein That's why I find I find that work so fascinating. Marie Henein You know it's litigated at the provincial court at Superior Court at the appellate court the every day. Marie Henein You can see just by looking at what cases are released and the judgments that are released, that issues are litigated and rethought. Marie Henein But so you think of all the changes about search and seizure and warrant requirements that were occurring when the Charter just gets, you know, gets passed in 82 and I'm in school in 80. Marie Henein I graduated in 89 so. Marie Henein Four years into the charters existence, we're just thinking about, well, what does search and seizure mean? Marie Henein What can the state do? Marie Henein When can they stop you? Marie Henein When can they frisk you when? Marie Henein To me they execute a warrant. Marie Henein Do you need judicial authorization for a warrant or wiretap? Marie Henein OK, Fast forward. Marie Henein Now we're dealing with phones. Marie Henein We're dealing with you having your entire life on your phone and a customs officer being able to look at that, or a police officer being able to look at it. Marie Henein And so now we're litigating what is search and seizure in the context of this environment. Marie Henein The law is criminal. Marie Henein Law is constantly, constantly changing and you're absolutely right because I've been doing some work. Marie Henein As I said in civil litigation that when I go to look at the law because that's my first stop. Marie Henein Always it's pretty paltry. Marie Henein But there's not a lot of litigation around, but very fundamental principles that you would say, oh, there must be, you know, 100 cases like give me the most recent 10 top appellate cases. Marie Henein This and you get an answer saying, well, there's one superior Superior Court judgment 10 years ago. Marie Henein It's very surprising to me because in my you know, Pratt area practice area that I've spent so much time in. Marie Henein If I were to say to a lawyer, I'll give you the top ten search and seizure cases. Marie Henein Section 8. Marie Henein I mean, you can limit it to 10 this year. Marie Henein I mean you. Marie Henein Couldn't limit it to 10 this month. Marie Henein So it's constantly, constantly changing and developing and being refined and being explained, and so it's fascinating. Marie Henein But you're absolutely right in civil litigation because things aren't litigated. Marie Henein I think that's part of it. Marie Henein You know they're resolved. Marie Henein Often the litigation is rare. Marie Henein It's not the norm, whereas for us it's the norm. Marie Henein Because you have no option if you're charged, you have to litigate. Marie Henein In civil litigation, that often resolves it, it often never gets to the merits, and so you know it's an entire practice and bar that isn't. Marie Henein You know they're not sitting there agonizing over what the latest principles are in in trust law or the latest principles are in property law. Marie Henein It arises and occasionally cases ultimately get litigated. Marie Henein But you're right, it's a very very. Marie Henein It's a much narrower field and I have to say I find that fascinating. Marie Henein 'cause you know, I love thinking about law and when you're doing civil litigation, it's a bit of a wide open field. Marie Henein It's interesting. Avi Charney Yeah, but most. Avi Charney Table as well. Avi Charney So I mean in Canada the last few years cannabis became legal. Avi Charney That's I think a big criminal law development. Avi Charney I'm wondering what was your involvement there, if any. Avi Charney Red you might have been involved with. Avi Charney That to that, if anything and the follow up to that, no. No, I'm not. Marie Henein No, no, I've done. Marie Henein You know, I've done cases historically when it was all being litigated, but that was not the the sort of mantle that I carry there. Marie Henein A lot of lawyers. Marie Henein Professor Alan Young, one of the most significant. Marie Henein We really spend a lot of time litigating legalism. Marie Henein And so that that's not that. Marie Henein That's not something that I focused on, but what an extraordinary change for. Avi Charney Society right? Avi Charney So I mean, that's a big one, whereas someone would be charged now. Avi Charney Now it's legal. Avi Charney Are there any other things that you want to see like that become legal and maybe take a whole lot loaded docket or for criminal law? Avi Charney So criminal lawyers desk. Avi Charney You know what? Avi Charney What should be legalized as well? Avi Charney Do you think well? Marie Henein Other drug Marie Henein Offenses and there are countries that deal with even hard drugs as being an addiction. Marie Henein A different type of social problem. Marie Henein Not one that's solved by incarceration. Marie Henein I think that would be very, very helpful, and there's some discussion about. Marie Henein Thinking about it and being more flexible in how we deal with that impaired driving, which consumes a lot out of the docket, there are different models to dealing with it and, for example, British Columbia. Marie Henein With the support of Matt have a different approach which allow it to be, for example. Marie Henein Dealt with rather than as a criminal trial as a provincial offence with a similar like the same suspension. Marie Henein That's a significant thing because those cases bog down the system and there's no benefit to an accused pleading guilty like there's no you can lose at trial, or you can not have a trial. Marie Henein You end up in the same place. Marie Henein So British Columbia has a system where you can actually plead down to a provincial offence. Marie Henein It's had a significant impact, something that Ontario certainly should consider. Marie Henein But the big one, I think for me would be the the drugs and also getting rid of mandatory minimums which the government has recently proposed. Marie Henein Getting rid of a lot of the mandatory minimums that have been in place for several years now, I think that that those are two places we need to really think. Marie Henein About what what would be? Avi Charney The effect of getting rid of. Avi Charney Mandatory minimums. Marie Henein Less incarceration, less incarceration for, and more discretion in sentencing. Avi Charney So when I was also preparing for to speak with you, I spoke to my neighbor, a criminal lawyer, and he said your your case. Avi Charney Your previous case made it more difficult to look into the background people sexual history as a background. Avi Charney Now I've heard you say as part of a case a complainant their sexual background. Avi Charney Could be relevant because that's exactly part of the case and now apparently you have to bring a separate application to get that heard what's. Avi Charney What's the story there? Avi Charney The development around the background of sexual complaints. Marie Henein OK, now that that's not correct. Marie Henein First of all I I was not the person who litigated the case is called seaboyer and then subsequently Darrow which is ages ago, which dealt with limiting access to sexual history of a complainant and that makes perfect sense because historically you just need to understand what the history of of the law of evidence. Marie Henein Is an that historically an unchaste complainant was worthy of less credibility, right? Marie Henein So there were these gendered theories around women that were. Marie Henein Nonsensical, but just silly, and so eventually eventually the court said you can't just ask about sexual history. Marie Henein It's not a free for all because it's not relevant. Marie Henein It has nothing to do with the price of gas. Marie Henein I mean we. Marie Henein We ask tough. Marie Henein Questions, if they're relevant to the case. Marie Henein We don't ask tough questions for. Marie Henein The fun of humiliating somebody that's. Marie Henein So it's not the game, right? Marie Henein That's not the point of it. Marie Henein So in Seaboyer and Indira they they focused, and there's of course legislation in the Criminal Code about when you can and cannot get into prior sexual history. Marie Henein It's very constrained, it's very rare. Marie Henein Makes sense because it is very rarely relevant, so that has nothing to do with my cases. Marie Henein That's just the law, I think probably what he's referring to is the use of the use of emails or of communications, electronic communications and whether you can cross examine a complainant on them without. Marie Henein Disclosing them and that has been litigated all the way to the Supreme Court and and we'll see where that you know ultimately how we deal with that, and I believe that's what he's referring to as to whether or not you can put two away. Marie Henein Fitness without giving them notice their prior their prior communications were then accused and certainly where their communications of the sexual nature they would fall within the parameters of prior sexual history. Marie Henein So you'd have to bring an application and get it litigated. Avi Charney So did you. Avi Charney Have any involvement in that process having to bring an application or I was mistaken there? Marie Henein I think I think what he's referring to is. Marie Henein It was referred to as the Ghomeshi rule because it followed that trial. Marie Henein And quite frankly, if you pick up the transcripts, you would know it's not accurate. Marie Henein That's not what occurred, but in any event. Marie Henein There were rules around when could you could you put to a witness? Marie Henein Their own words. Marie Henein And their own communications. Marie Henein And whether you had to give them notice and whether you had to get lead from the court effectively, effectively to put this type. Marie Henein Of evidence. Marie Henein So that's what that relates. Marie Henein To OK. Avi Charney Nice I'm, I'm wondering also these days we're living with the COVID this pandemic. Avi Charney How's it affected affected you and your practice and then the follow up for that is could you foresee or have you even had any COVID related charges or convictions or anything? Marie Henein So no, no to the COVID related charge that I can think of other people in my office. Marie Henein Have had some some stuff, but in terms of how it's affected my practice probably the same way as it's affected. Marie Henein Really, everybody you know we were able to pivot and work largely from home. Marie Henein As you know, most firms did, but we're in the business of litigation and it's very hard to litigate by zoom. Marie Henein It's hard to even do an interview by Zoom because you're not, you know there's something about the personal dynamic. Marie Henein Uhm, that is completely completely lost, so I I think it's been challenging for most litigators. Marie Henein You know it's easier, you can litigate, you know, to get out of your house, which is nice, but I don't think it's particularly nice for the people who are engaging with the system witnesses and accused people. Marie Henein I think it deeper personalizes. Marie Henein And I think it's been really hard. Marie Henein I think the assumption that anyone has a computer in a private space and can just turn their computer on and testify is silly. Marie Henein That's not true. Marie Henein Most people don't have that and. Marie Henein So you know when you're. Marie Henein Dealing already with a system that is apart from members of the public and is. Marie Henein Opaque to members of the public. Marie Henein It's even more removed when you're doing it through a computer, and so I think there have been some negatives to this. Marie Henein There have been some positives. We've streamlined. We've become more efficient. We've become somewhat technologically current, not 100%. Marie Henein But the other thing is for lawyers and young lawyers listening to this podcast, it's really hard and we have lawyers in our office who've joined the firm or who have graduated and joined the firm and their first year or two of practice has been entirely during the. Marie Henein Pandemic, they've had no one on one mentoring. Marie Henein They've not had to be. Marie Henein They've not had the opportunity to watch a courtroom like part of the fun of the practice is you go into a courtroom and you get to talk to other lawyers and you get to see. Marie Henein What they're doing and they don't. Marie Henein Have any of that and so it's. Marie Henein Really, really hard to. Marie Henein To try to make sure the young lawyers are getting the experience they need, and I think they have lost a lot in the last few years because of the pandemic. Avi Charney Just practically speaking, the accused is in jail. Avi Charney Do you have to go visit them or these days? Avi Charney Do the does the jail have? Avi Charney A video thing you can set up. Marie Henein The jails have very limited video access, which has been part of the problem during the course of this pandemic. Marie Henein They have little limited access to have video rooms where you can either meet with or litigate so you know some jails will have five and there are hundreds of people there that have cases that day. Marie Henein So they've been brought to court. Marie Henein You know my, my colleague Danielle had a case where her client was the only one in court 'cause there was no video room and everybody else had to be on zoom. Marie Henein So Can you imagine that the client is sitting in court alone entirely alone? Marie Henein And everyone else is dialing in by zoom, so it's been challenging and it's been, you know, there. Marie Henein Have been a. Marie Henein Lot of odd circumstances you can go and visit clients people have, but not all clients are in jail, right? Marie Henein There are clients that are on bail, but it's been challenging for sure. Avi Charney Absolutely. Just do switch gears. Avi Charney Little bit, I'm all for freedom of speech and expression, and again I enjoyed your book. Avi Charney Another quick plug and when I read how the Toronto District School Board banned it from a a book club, I was disappointed and hurt and I thought, you know, your story needs to be heard by many. Avi Charney It's a great story, you know, an immigrant coming and. Avi Charney And you know, landing up as a top lawyer over here. Avi Charney Do you have any comments about that? Avi Charney I mean, I I don't know if there's been any updates since then. Avi Charney If they've retracted their ban, but. Marie Henein So there are a couple of updates they did retract their ban. Marie Henein We have been a TDSB focused. Marie Henein Then we are having an event actually this Saturday because a. Marie Henein Number of lawyers. Marie Henein Were very annoyed with that and thought. Marie Henein It was perfect. Marie Henein Well, to the work that we do as defense lawyers as crown attorneys, as people involved in the justice system. Marie Henein So we're having a National Book club this Saturday with high school students across the country. Marie Henein We've got lawyers from across the country, and it's free, and it's an opportunity for high school students. Marie Henein All over Canada to ask US questions and ask me questions about the justice system and what we do and how you become a lawyer. Marie Henein And all of that. Marie Henein So that's been part. Marie Henein That's positive that grew out of it. Marie Henein But you know this idea of censorship, which you know we're not the first people to be talking about it. Marie Henein It is rampant and it's rampant everywhere. Marie Henein You know there are books being taken out of libraries. Marie Henein There are books being taken out of schools. Marie Henein There are people being precluded from speaking because their views are. Marie Henein Uh, you know, viewed as as being not the norm or fringy whatever, and so I think we're really struggling with our approach to education as a whole, and our approach to hearing opposing views as a as a culture. Marie Henein We seem to think. Marie Henein That if someone tells to something that we disagree with that that will automatically trigger us or is a is a micro aggression or a big aggression. Marie Henein And you know, sometimes you are going to hear things that you not only disagree with you, find offense. Marie Henein That's sort of part of the value. Marie Henein Of freedom of speech because you have to remember what you think is offensive is is obviously a personal decision. Marie Henein And historically, the people who've been silenced are marginalized, disadvantaged, unpopular views, views that now you would say, well, Oh my gosh, you know Speaking of South Africa, Nelson Mandela was on the terrorist list. Marie Henein He would have been viewed at the time as being outrageous. Marie Henein Somebody who should not be allowed to speak. Marie Henein He should be silenced. Marie Henein You wouldn't think of saying that now, but that's the point of it, right? Marie Henein The point of. Marie Henein Speech is that sometimes to get the good stuff you have to withstand a lot of garbage and we can't. Marie Henein There's no one person who can decide what's good, what's valuable, what's going to move us along in society, and what's pure garbage. Marie Henein Which means you have to let people talk, and you have the opportunity to respond. Marie Henein You can turn it off. Marie Henein You can disagree. Marie Henein You can, but shutting conversation down. Marie Henein And shutting speech down, I don't think except for the rarest of circumstances, I don't think really helps us as a society. Marie Henein I think it just you know you may not see it, but they're not going away. Marie Henein They're still saying it, they're just saying it to people who agree with them and so. Marie Henein It's unfortunate for a lot of reasons that that's the reaction. Avi Charney Yeah, definitely. Avi Charney I mean, we can have a whole long conversation about. Avi Charney What should be banned or shouldn't be banned and all the misinformation out there? Avi Charney It's a whole discussion in itself, but on the balance of probabilities, let's say I'm all for free speech and a book like yours should definitely be out there. Avi Charney So yeah, lean towards freedom if anything. Avi Charney Right, a couple of more questions. Avi Charney You've been great and thank you for your time so far just to end with a couple more questions. Avi Charney One is when I was first called to the bar. Avi Charney I spoke to one of the our top criminal lawyers in my community. Avi Charney He's since become a judge. Avi Charney And his advice to me was categorical. Avi Charney If you want to make a living, stay away from criminal law and, uh, I mean, I don't know if it was based on what he said or not, but I I listened to that advice. Avi Charney You know what would you say to, let's say, third year law students now? Avi Charney Should they pursue a career in criminal law? Avi Charney What's your take on that? Marie Henein They should pursue a career in what they love and there are a lot of sacrifices in criminal law. Marie Henein Some of them can be financial and you don't get necessarily which you'll get paid on base St. Marie Henein But you have to do that because you love it. Marie Henein I mean, you take that. Marie Henein That's a calculated risk that I was talking about earlier. Marie Henein If it's more important to you to to get a very, very certain salary, then yes, this would not be the profession for you because there is a certain amount of risk in it. Marie Henein I I wouldn't dissuade anyone, but I would say that you have to really feel like this is something you want to commit yourself to. Marie Henein It's not something that you can check out of at 5:00 o'clock. Marie Henein It's going to be with you all the time, and it's going to. Marie Henein It's going to cause some very fundamental changes then you personally, and it's going to cause some. Marie Henein You know some impacts. Marie Henein On how you choose to live your life that goes back to the very thing. Marie Henein First thing we were talking about, which is you? Marie Henein You've got to think of. Marie Henein You know which you want your life to be like, what you're what prices you're willing to pay for certain things, and where you want to calibrate it. Marie Henein And again, very different for every different person you you know you gotta find your own strike. Marie Henein Something that works for you. Avi Charney Do you think? Marie Henein But if you're trying to make a. Marie Henein Big Buck, this wouldn't be the first stop for sure as a guaranteed place you can do it, but. Marie Henein It's not. Marie Henein It wouldn't be a guarantee. Avi Charney Right? Avi Charney Uh, do you think someone can dabble in criminal law or it's like an all in type thing, just based on all the changes you speak of? Avi Charney Do you think someone could take on a file here and there or? Avi Charney It's an all in type field. Marie Henein Well, you know it requires a great deal of knowledge and experience, so dabbling is pretty dangerous, particularly when what you're dabbling with is somebody's life, right? Marie Henein But what I would say is historically, if you think about the true barristers of England and barristers as they used to be here in Canada and Ontario, those lawyers. Marie Henein That were real litigators. Marie Henein Would do a. Marie Henein Civil jury trial and then a criminal jury trial. Marie Henein They would do it all. Marie Henein So I think you have the capacity to do that, but it's very difficult and you know you have to have a lot of expertise, so I would I would. Marie Henein I would be very nervous about just dabbling. Avi Charney As a last question, give advice to either law students or your younger self. Avi Charney Uhm myself, either way, just the last bit of wisdom to us all. Marie Henein Well, my my my main piece of. Marie Henein Advice is always. Marie Henein Have confidence you know this profession is tough for a lot of reasons. Marie Henein It's tough because it doesn't necessarily attract the most generous group of people, it's it's. Marie Henein They're tough people. Marie Henein Everyone fighting hard. Marie Henein It's pretty competitive. Marie Henein And then there's all this external stuff, and so. Marie Henein When you combine all of that, it becomes often very personally difficult to nab. Marie Henein Get it, you have to have confidence in yourself as I always say. Marie Henein Why is anyone going to believe you if you don't believe in yourself, why are they going to listen to you if you don't want to listen to yourself? Marie Henein You know that confidence is part of what people are paying for when they come to retain you as their lawyer. Marie Henein Can you imagine if you went to a doctor and they were nervous and falling apart and and crying and not sure of themselves? Marie Henein You say I'm out of here. Marie Henein I'm not going to risk my life and I'm not going to hand my life over to someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Marie Henein You have to have confidence in yourself. Marie Henein You have to have confidence in your decisions and you have to have confidence that you know you know. Marie Henein What you're capable? Marie Henein Of and a lot of times that involves shutting the rest of the noise out. Avi Charney Last question you you mentioned in the description of Eddie and Mark and yourself that you're fearless. Avi Charney Is there a room for fear in criminal law practice and does anything make you fearful? Marie Henein Making a mistake makes me fearful getting the making the wrong judgment call makes me fearful. Marie Henein Fearful because. Marie Henein 'cause the consequences are so significant. Marie Henein So that's the thing that makes me nervous or causes lose sleep is, you know. Marie Henein Am I doing the right thing? Marie Henein Am I making the right call and I you know it's all related to how you're executing your job, how you're performing, and how you're representing your your client. Marie Henein That's the stuff I spend a great deal of time. Marie Henein Thinking about and and trying to make sure I'm I'm making the right decision, but the rest of it, no, I'm not. Marie Henein I'm not afraid of it. Avi Charney Murray, this has been insightful and it's been lovely to connect with you and I'll give you the last word here before we sign off. Avi Charney And let you go. Marie Henein Well, thank you no. Marie Henein I I enjoyed speaking to you. Marie Henein I hope the young lawyers listening to this aren't dissuaded from practicing. Marie Henein And I I just, I hope they know that we are in a very, very honorable profession, and that we are professionals, and that we bring a lot to the way our society and our democracy is. Avi Charney Absolutely well. Avi Charney Thank you so much until next time.