Doug Bourassa on Speak to a Lawyer with Avi Charney.mp3 00:00:00 00:57:44 AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED TRANSCRIPTION 00:00:00 Avi Charney  Thank for us. Thank you so much for joining us here on speak to a lawyer. It's a pleasure to have you. We're both real estate lawyers, although I'm sure we have a very different practice. I'm very excited to get into the nitty gritty details with you about your practice and a bit about real estate law. I'd like to start at the very beginning where you from, Doug and. 00:00:20 Avi Charney What prompted you to study law? 00:00:23 Doug Bourassa Well, First off, thanks for having me. I'm a big fan. I've enjoyed a lot of your episodes and I think it's great that you're doing this so. 00:00:31 Doug Bourassa I'm really happy to. 00:00:32 Doug Bourassa Be here and speak about this. 00:00:36 Doug Bourassa  I'll begin. So I'm from Calgary, AB. I grew up the son of a lawyer. My father is a lawyer. 00:00:45 Doug Bourassa But he's from a bit of a different age because he was the type of lawyer who his area. 00:00:51 Doug Bourassa Of specialty was law. 00:00:54 Doug Bourassa We did it all. He did criminal. He did real estate, he did litigation, he did commercial law. 00:01:00 Doug Bourassa You did solicitors work as States and wills. 00:01:03 Doug Bourassa That was back in a time where people would come out of law school, hang a shingle shingle and take all come obviously to practice a lot. That I'm engaged in now is very different. I'm a lawyer at at torque and mains here in Toronto with 120 lawyers or something like that. 00:01:23 Doug Bourassa Very different beast and everyone becomes a lot more specialized, but. 00:01:28 Doug Bourassa I grew up. 00:01:30 Doug Bourassa Being a bit of a. 00:01:31 Doug Bourassa Gopher in my dad's law firm. I did a lot of closed files. That was my specialty, which really just meant marking down which ones I was taking out to the dumpster. That's really my experience at law, out with my father. And as it happened. 00:01:50 Doug Bourassa Both of my dad's kids, my mother and dad's kids, myself and my sister both ended up becoming lawyers. My sister practiced in Montreal, and I practiced here in Toronto. You know, one of the interesting things about growing up with a father. 00:02:09 Doug Bourassa The lawyer is, until I began practice and no idea what he did all day. 00:02:15 Doug Bourassa Didn't have foggiest idea. 00:02:18 Avi Charney Well, they must have said a good example some way for you to follow suit. 00:02:23 Doug Bourassa Well, you know, I think everyone comes to it for their own reasons and you know for for me, my experience with coming to getting a law degree wasn't to follow in my father's footsteps, although that's what I ended up doing. 00:02:40 Doug Bourassa I was one of those students who came out of high school and didn't have the foggiest idea what. 00:02:48 Doug Bourassa And my undergrad degree was a six year odyssey across four different institutions and three provinces. I was an engineering student. I was a chemistry student. 00:03:00 Doug Bourassa And I ended. 00:03:00 Doug Bourassa Up with a Bachelor of Arts and Philosophy, I just had no idea what I wanted to do and. 00:03:07 Doug Bourassa Through university, I just eventually gravitated towards the. 00:03:12 Doug Bourassa Things that I found most interesting and I. 00:03:15 Doug Bourassa Remember very clearly. 00:03:16 Doug Bourassa I was at the end of my philosophy degree. 00:03:19 Doug Bourassa Which I quite enjoyed. I you know I. 00:03:22 Doug Bourassa I don't particularly care. 00:03:23 Doug Bourassa What some dead Greek guy said, but I'm interested in what the next dead Greek guy said he was wrong. I found that sort of study of critical thinking. 00:03:32 Doug Bourassa You will be. 00:03:34 Doug Bourassa And I remember very clearly at the end of that degree sort of faced with the choice, do I want to pursue that or do I want to try law school? I remember looking around the campus and I ultimately got my degree at University of Western Ontario and campus. There is beautiful. I mean it's. 00:03:53 Doug Bourassa It's bucolic, especially in the spring. There's, you know, young people frolicking on the big. 00:03:59 Doug Bourassa Grass line it's. 00:04:00 Doug Bourassa Just perfect. It's everything you can imagine. I remember looking around and thinking to myself this is really good. 00:04:07 Doug Bourassa But if I pursue a masters. 00:04:10 Doug Bourassa This is it. 00:04:13 Doug Bourassa And that wasn't enough for me. And so I made the decision I wanted to go to law school. And, you know, if I want to speak really bluntly. 00:04:23 Doug Bourassa I loved in philosophy the argument, but I'm ego driven enough that I loved the audience. That law school would give me. 00:04:31 Doug Bourassa So what I want? 00:04:32 Doug Bourassa I wanted both an audience and an argument, and that's why I ended up in law. 00:04:37 Doug Bourassa School and I was this sort of law student who. 00:04:44 Doug Bourassa Litigation was the only path for me. I I didn't understand solicitors work. Not that I'm looking down on it, but it was never for me. So in in the introduction you said I'm a real estate lawyer like you and that's only part true. I'm. 00:05:02 Avi Charney I had more I had worked to. 00:05:03 Avi Charney The introduction that we get into the differences, how your litigation lawyer in in real estate, but yeah you it's it's very cool how you found your found you found your footing and you found your path in litigation right off the get go. 00:05:19 Doug Bourassa Yeah, it it. 00:05:22 Doug Bourassa It in my mind. 00:05:26 Doug Bourassa I never had a hankering for transactional work when I imagined that I was a lawyer. It was always in a courtroom that that's where it had to be for me. I loved in law school, doing notes. I loved any sort of presenting I loved. 00:05:46 Doug Bourassa Making speeches, much to my professor Shagrin, that oral advocacy piece of it. 00:05:54 Doug Bourassa Was something that I was drawn to right away. 00:05:57 Avi Charney Well, so I mean you've you've got some amazing experience in the courtroom since becoming a lawyer, including pellet worker, all sorts of courts throughout Ontario. How did how did you give me the first steps when you graduated from articling onwards to, you know, how did you get to? 00:06:17 Avi Charney Ultimately, where you are today, but give me your first bits of courtroom experience. 00:06:23 Doug Bourassa I remember the first thing I said in court verbatim. I remember every word that I said on my 1st court appearance. Can I? 00:06:32 Doug Bourassa Relate it to. 00:06:32 Avi Charney You please. 00:06:35 Doug Bourassa The judge said Mr. Barasa, do you consent? And I said. 00:06:44 Speaker I nailed it. 00:06:45 Avi Charney That was everything I said I can. 00:06:47 Doug Bourassa Send it the hell out of that motion. 00:06:51 Doug Bourassa And I was so proud about. 00:06:53 Avi Charney It you got, you got to start somewhere. 00:06:55 Doug Bourassa That's right. And you know, that's always been the way for me, you know, you see those bumper stickers that a bad day fishing is better than a good day at the office or whatever a bad day in court to me is better than any other day that I can have in the office. I don't care if my motion. 00:07:15 Doug Bourassa Is a consent matter? That doesn't matter. I don't care if it's unopposed. I don't care if it's silly, procedural, substantive, contested. 00:07:26 Doug Bourassa I just want to be in a courtroom that's sort of that's kind of the thing that makes me come alive with this job. 00:07:36 Doug Bourassa You know, there's really something about litigation that I think is often overlooked and that's this drop that I have. 00:07:47 Doug Bourassa It's a performance profession, right? It culminates all the backroom work we do culminates in a performance right and that performance starts the moment you walk through the courtroom and how you treat the staff, how tall you stand next to your client in the eyes of the opponent. 00:08:07 Doug Bourassa All those little things about being professional, being the voice of reason, being in control and being confident. All of those elements are performative. Doesn't mean they're lies. When I say that, and I'm saying something different, I'm saying it is. 00:08:25 Doug Bourassa Purposeful and it is not simply a matter of showing up and delivering a speech. It's very different. 00:08:34 Doug Bourassa Than that the. 00:08:35 Doug Bourassa Art of advocacy is different than that it's performed. It needs to have the substance behind it, of course, but. 00:08:43 Doug Bourassa If you miss out on the performance. 00:08:45 Doug Bourassa Part you're not doing your job because if there's no performance, all you've got is a written record and why? 00:08:54 Doug Bourassa Did you bother showing up? 00:08:56 Avi Charney I mean, I seem to get so much satisfaction out of the courtroom experience. 00:09:00 Avi Charney If I might. 00:09:01 Avi Charney One of the frustrations like you know, if you're doing the whole performance and the judge just doesn't get it. And what what, what's frustrated you over the years about the process? 00:09:12 Doug Bourassa Well, First off. 00:09:13 Doug Bourassa If the judge doesn't get what I'm saying, the failing is mine, right #1. 00:09:21 Doug Bourassa Job is to be a communicator. 00:09:25 Doug Bourassa Right. I I remember very early on in. 00:09:29 Doug Bourassa My practice I was in front of. 00:09:31 Doug Bourassa A judge who? 00:09:33 Doug Bourassa Had recently been appointed and you know, I was arguing some type of mortgage enforcement thing or some procedure thing. Not particularly complicated but specific to the subject matter. 00:09:46 Doug Bourassa And the judge said to the courtroom. I have just recently been appointed. 00:09:52 Doug Bourassa I practiced law in the area of tax for 25 years and I'm an expert in that field. I am the person in this room with the least knowledge about the subject you're asking me to decide. I need you to educate me and thank goodness that judge had the humility to say that he ended up. I've been in front of him. 00:10:13 Doug Bourassa Dozen times. He's an excellent judge. 00:10:15 Doug Bourassa But it's a great reminder to young lawyers out there just because someone's wearing a red sash, it doesn't mean that they're an expert in the area of law that you're talking about. 00:10:25 Doug Bourassa You might have. 00:10:27 Doug Bourassa No idea what you're talking about. You know, they may have practiced for years in states, you know and. 00:10:35 Doug Bourassa Now you want it. 00:10:35 Doug Bourassa To them about. 00:10:37 Doug Bourassa Civil Procedure. Maybe their specialty was real estate and now you have to tell them about personal injury law or something. So the judge is not getting what I'm saying. I'm failing in my role of clearly educating and communicating to the judge. You know, I cannot assume. 00:10:57 Doug Bourassa That, that judge knows everything about the area of law that I'm arguing about, and it's my job to make sure that the leading cases and the proper factors are before that judge. Now they may disagree with my application of that test entirely. They may not buy what I'm. 00:11:16 Doug Bourassa Selling. But if they're not understanding or not getting what I'm selling, the failing is mine. My written material wasn't clear enough, or I need to go slower and there's an assumption I haven't even realized I'm making because I'm so close to the case that the judge hasn't made because he or she. 00:11:37 Doug Bourassa Isn't there it? 00:11:40 Doug Bourassa Very much A2 way St. one of the most difficult things for me as a litigator is when I appear in front of a judge. 00:11:48 Doug Bourassa And they sit there. Stone faced like an obelisk, merely writing notes. I find it madding, because I have no idea if they're understanding my argument. 00:12:02 Doug Bourassa I am a. 00:12:02 Doug Bourassa Big believer in having an exchange with the judge and. 00:12:08 Doug Bourassa As I become more confident over. 00:12:10 Doug Bourassa Years. I'll interrupt my submissions to say, Your Honor, this is a key point for me. I need to make sure that the court understands this point. Do you have any questions about this? And I'll invite that discussion. There's nothing wrong about that, but it draws to the court's attention. 00:12:30 Doug Bourassa How important this element? 00:12:32 Doug Bourassa It is, and how crucial it is that it be understood, and hopefully it can spark a bit of back and forth, because when the judge starts asking me questions. 00:12:43 Doug Bourassa Then I have. 00:12:44 Doug Bourassa A better sense of where the pressure points are and where I can direct my focus the worst is if I'm just giving a speech to a stoned. 00:12:53 Doug Bourassa Place note taker. I mean it sounds. 00:12:56 Avi Charney Like you have incredible ability and confidence in the courtroom. Can you go back to the early days of? 00:13:03 Avi Charney But maybe mentorship about people, lawyers who maybe gave you such confidence and ability, who did you learn from? I I heard from the Grapevine. You you did articles with Joe Greer. A legend on Bay Street. I interviewed him in the past. And I mean other such people you've worked with. And I think I put your name in Canley. 00:13:24 Avi Charney And I think 87 plus references came up. So you you've been all over the courtrooms in Ontario and and worked alongside some amazing lawyers throughout the years. 00:13:34 Avi Charney I mean, how do you? 00:13:35 Avi Charney How did you develop such such ability and confidence? 00:13:40 Doug Bourassa Well, I'll leave the judgment to whether I've developed any ability to others. It's flattering. 00:13:46 Speaker I hope I. 00:13:47 Doug Bourassa Have but that's not for me to say. 00:13:50 Doug Bourassa I did article it with Joe Gregoria, an excellent lawyer. 00:13:57 Doug Bourassa Probably a better person than he is a lawyer. I have only great things to say about him. He was very good to me and this firm was very good to me. I listened to your interview with him. It was like hearing from an old friend. So it was really nice. 00:14:12 Doug Bourassa To hear his perspective on what he went through, having all of those mentors is absolutely crucial. After I articled at Gloria's firm, I then went to a small 20 lawyer firm called Chickens. And the best thing that happened to me. 00:14:33 Doug Bourassa There was that I was in. 00:14:36 Doug Bourassa Court all the time. 00:14:38 Doug Bourassa All the time. Every week I was in court on something or other. 00:14:41 Doug Bourassa Not big things. 00:14:43 Doug Bourassa Not huge earth shattering things, but I was getting in an awful lot of repetition and. 00:14:51 Doug Bourassa Mitigation and advocacy you cannot learn, but by doing you can't practice your craft. 00:15:00 Doug Bourassa In a dress rehearsal. 00:15:03 Doug Bourassa You need to be going to the show and you know, when I was there, I received great mentorship from a couple from a bunch of lawyers there. One in particular. Now retired. A guy named Mark Hartman who. 00:15:20 Doug Bourassa Really prided himself on the role of an advocate as an officer of the Court, and he took that very, very seriously. But. 00:15:31 Doug Bourassa When he appeared. 00:15:32 Doug Bourassa Before a judge, First off, that judge would remember how he behaved the next time, which is very true. 00:15:43 Doug Bourassa He would be scrupulously fair. That was what he prided himself on. He was incredibly fair. If there was a case that was against him, that the other side didn't reference. 00:15:55 Doug Bourassa He would be. 00:15:56 Speaker Get up. 00:15:57 Doug Bourassa You would distinguish it what a powerful advocacy tool in less than that was for me to see him do that, to recognize his role as an officer of the court required him to bring up a leading authority that the other side had missed. 00:16:14 Doug Bourassa That would hurt him now, as it happens, when a judge sees a lawyer do that all of a sudden, the respect and confidence that the bench has for those submissions is elevated. So it turns out. 00:16:29 Doug Bourassa That weaponized fairness, that scrupulous honesty, was a powerful advocacy tool, and I got to see him deploy that time after time and. 00:16:46 Doug Bourassa You know one of the. 00:16:47 Doug Bourassa Great lessons I had as a young lawyer was. 00:16:52 Doug Bourassa I got the. 00:16:52 Doug Bourassa Privilege of going to dozens of different little courts throughout the province and the reason why that matters. 00:17:02 Doug Bourassa Is because you. 00:17:02 Doug Bourassa Learn very quickly. 00:17:04 Doug Bourassa That every court does things a little differently. 00:17:07 Doug Bourassa Maybe the robing room is different? Maybe. 00:17:09 Doug Bourassa You need a. 00:17:10 Doug Bourassa Pass card. Maybe you need a pass code, maybe you're not allowed to use it. Maybe you have to rent a locker. Maybe you can't rent a locker. Maybe you have to go in their law association. And that's before you step into the corner. And that's just getting. 00:17:22 Doug Bourassa Changed and then when you get into the courtroom, how do you get your order back? The judge agrees. Signs an order in some courthouses. You have to follow after the Commissioner down to the Court office, and some will give it to you. You take a photograph. All of them have their own little practices and procedures. And by going to all these different. 00:17:43 Doug Bourassa Sports. I learned very early on. 00:17:47 Doug Bourassa That you're a stranger in a strange land and you're a guest and you need to behave yourself accordingly. The last thing anyone wants to hear is. Well, in Toronto, we do it this way. I mean, that's that's the best way to get yourself chased out of town. There is no monopoly on good lawyers. 00:18:07 Doug Bourassa And smart judges in Toronto, they're everywhere. And when you're a guest in one of those other jurisdictions, you play the tune that they're playing, and especially in those smaller jurisdictions, lawyers make reputations fast. 00:18:25 Doug Bourassa And it's it's kind of a truism that people. 00:18:31 Doug Bourassa A stink lasts longer than something that's unobjectionable. So when you blow it, when you do something bad, when you take a position that is foolish, when you fight about something that ought not be thought about when you. 00:18:45 Doug Bourassa Take that sort of role. 00:18:50 Doug Bourassa And then you're in front of that judge the next week. 00:18:53 Doug Bourassa Are they going to believe? 00:18:54 Doug Bourassa What you have to say probably not. Probably not. 00:19:01 Doug Bourassa Yeah, I mean you. 00:19:02 Avi Charney You have such a an incredible, incredible and incredibly specialized career, I would say. Now in real estate litigation and that's a broad umbrella, includes a full work, mortgage enforcement. I want to get into a few details there, which I'm interested in touch upon my solicitors. 00:19:23 Avi Charney Real estate practice as well, but. 00:19:25 Avi Charney Before we get there. 00:19:26 Avi Charney You know, you said your father was a General practitioner for someone who's trying to figure out what practice to pursue in law pursue. They just passed the bar exam or graduated law school. How did you develop such a nice, interesting niche? And how do how do you how does someone butter that for themselves? 00:19:46 Avi Charney I mean, you're you're also coming from the the from a big firm perspective with a lot of different practice areas. So a tail end question to that is, do you see any hot areas of law which people should look into? 00:20:00 Doug Bourassa The answer to the question is through accident and audacity. 00:20:07 Doug Bourassa I certainly never woke up one day and said I would like my specialty to be real estate related litigation. 00:20:15 Doug Bourassa And I think for most people, that's true. 00:20:19 Doug Bourassa That's true. Very. 00:20:20 Doug Bourassa Few of us wake up one morning and say this is the type of lawyer I would like. 00:20:25 Doug Bourassa To be and come. 00:20:26 Doug Bourassa Hell or high water? I will be that type of lawyer. 00:20:30 Doug Bourassa I think instead. 00:20:32 Doug Bourassa As a young lawyer, you gravitate towards the things that you're enjoying. For me, it was just getting into court. As it happened, the place I was at, where there was a lot of work, it was real estate related. And when I say accident and audacity, the accident part, I never took a real estate class in law. 00:20:53 Doug Bourassa Never seen a title or a mortgage. I I had no interest. 00:20:59 Doug Bourassa I was interested in litigation, plain and simple. The audacity part is, you know, when you're a young lawyer, you should have the audacity to say yes when someone invites you to do something you haven't done before. You know, obviously you're not going to be audacious enough to take a bet. The company litigation, that's way. 00:21:20 Doug Bourassa Above you. 00:21:22 Doug Bourassa But saying I'm not sure I'm ready for that. As a young lawyer, I don't think that's your your call. You know, if if someone's giving you work, they offer it to you. 00:21:35 Doug Bourassa The answer is yes, and then you'll learn about it after. That's really the audacity that it takes. You know, I don't. I don't believe that anyone is successful solely through their own hard work. I believe it's a combination of hard work, opportunity, accident. 00:21:55 Doug Bourassa Good fortune. You know, if you. 00:21:58 Doug Bourassa Don't do the hard work. 00:22:00 Doug Bourassa You'll never get there, but on its own, that's not enough. There's lots of people who work really hard. I was fortunate to fall backwards and to a bunch of of areas of the law that I enjoy, and I took the opportunity to pursue it. And I'll tell you a quick little story. I do a fair bit of. 00:22:20 Doug Bourassa Speaking at Law Society, continuing professional development events, it's something that I enjoy. 00:22:28 Avi Charney And we enjoy hearing you there, so keep it up. 00:22:33 Doug Bourassa The first time that it came up, I was working with my Old Firm and it was a. 00:22:42 Doug Bourassa I got a call from the senior lawyer and he said. 00:22:47 Doug Bourassa I think I need. 00:22:47 Doug Bourassa You to deliver this speech for me. 00:22:50 Doug Bourassa Is it OK? 00:22:53 Doug Bourassa Why? And he said. Oh, I have to be in court so I can't make it all right. When is it? Tomorrow. Ohh. OK. 00:23:02 Doug Bourassa What's it about? And he told me I had no idea about that area whatsoever. 00:23:11 Doug Bourassa I said yes, I had the audacity to say, you know what I can do that he thinks I can do it. So why should I think that I can't do it? Let's do it. And so I went home and sort of read the paper that I had to read and got all nervous for the next day and. 00:23:29 Doug Bourassa I went up there, I delivered my speech and when I got back to the office. 00:23:36 Doug Bourassa One of the senior lawyers, not from our firm, from another firm who had been watching it, wrote a letter to my boss where he said. 00:23:47 Doug Bourassa I was dismayed to see that you were going to be speaking yet again, because I've heard you too many times. Thank goodness you were replaced by your young associate, Doug. I hope he continues to replace you at every opportunity. 00:24:00 Avi Charney In the future. 00:24:04 Doug Bourassa And there's a couple of things to take away from that. Number one, the audacity piece. Yeah, sure. I'll pretend I know about this area of the law and pretend to be an expert. If someone had asked me a hard question about it, I doubt I could have answered. 00:24:17 Doug Bourassa #2. 00:24:20 Doug Bourassa That letter that that other lawyer wrote. 00:24:24 Doug Bourassa What a great thing for a senior lawyer to do for a young lawyer's career and confidence he didn't have to write that letter. It was tongue in cheek. He was poking. 00:24:32 Doug Bourassa Fun at my boss. 00:24:34 Doug Bourassa But it was also a way of saying this guy, Doug Barasa fits in and belongs. 00:24:41 Doug Bourassa He can do that. 00:24:43 Doug Bourassa And you know, one thing that I have learned from doing a lot of these speaking events, I am forever grateful for all of those. 00:24:53 Doug Bourassa Senior lawyers who appear on them. 00:24:57 Doug Bourassa You know, for many years I was, I was the token non Gray hair at these events I would. I usually found myself to be one of the younger people who was speaking at them and the senior lawyers welcomed me into that fraternity of speakers without hesitation. 00:25:17 Doug Bourassa I've made some great relationships with people over the years. They've really need made me feel welcome and made me feel as though I belong. 00:25:27 Doug Bourassa And somewhere along the way, you accidentally become an expert. When you do these things often enough, you know, and that's very much what happened to me. I I didn't know anything about real estate, but. 00:25:42 Doug Bourassa You know, through saying yes, often enough. I found myself in a. 00:25:45 Doug Bourassa Position where I've. 00:25:46 Doug Bourassa Acquired a little bit of knowledge about it now and you know if someone thinks that makes me particularly skilled at it, that's great. 00:25:54 Avi Charney That's incredible attitude and being grateful for the right time and the right place. And if you can continue to be very successful, you know, continue to be at the right place at the right time, getting, getting there, taking this opportunity to pick your brain a little bit about the the real estate, I mean. 00:26:13 Avi Charney Me as a solicitor, you you are the suing us for defending us and we're you some. Sometimes a party to proceedings. Sometimes it's Linda. 00:26:25 Avi Charney You know what? 00:26:25 Avi Charney What are the big issues? Maybe real estate is typically an area that is full of claims. I think low pro, our insurer says it's the the most claimed area of law as well, along with the estate planning, which I happen to do as well. I'm I'm lucky. 00:26:44 Avi Charney Thank God this knock on wood. I've I've never had a claim, but I'm wondering, like the claims you've seen, is it solicitor incompetence? Lack of knowledge? You know what? What? What is the the claims usually stem from? Or is it? 00:27:02 Avi Charney In some situations, just like there's nothing they could do and and one example comes to to mind. We're having issues with the wiring. It has to be there 5 here and sometimes it's not really the lawyers fault. Is that something that is actionable? 00:27:17 Speaker Give me give me. 00:27:17 Avi Charney Some examples of cases that come across your your desk. 00:27:22 Avi Charney Regarding solicit. 00:27:24 Doug Bourassa Well, let me let me. 00:27:25 Doug Bourassa Begin by saying this real estate solicitors you know, particularly those who are dealing in the residential space, they are getting squeezed every which way. All of the financial pressures. 00:27:43 Doug Bourassa Of their practice. Push them. 00:27:47 Doug Bourassa To deliver to do a volume service, whereas all of the professional obligations demand that their volume service be a bespoke service and they have little pricing power and they have little ability to recoup. 00:28:07 Doug Bourassa The extra time that it takes, it's a very difficult situation, so here's what I mean by that. If someone's buying a house, there's kind of. 00:28:18 Doug Bourassa A going rate for the legal fees. 00:28:21 Doug Bourassa You're not generally going to be able to bill by the hour. Maybe you can, but not for the large volume guys. That's not the business model. And if you're doing flat fees. 00:28:34 Doug Bourassa That creates a pressure to do them as quickly and cheaply as possible. On the other hand, as the practice has become. 00:28:44 Doug Bourassa More systematized as the Law Society obligations and negligence law has become more specific. The obligations that you are expected to meet for that same flat fee are going up, but the flat fee isn't. 00:29:04 Doug Bourassa And that's what I mean when I say real estate solicitors are really in the squeeze. 00:29:09 Doug Bourassa That kind of leads to the. 00:29:11 Doug Bourassa Point of what types of claims I see. 00:29:14 Doug Bourassa A lot of them stem from that pressure of trying to push volume out the door and do multiple transactions. 00:29:27 Doug Bourassa And not being able to pay as close attention as they necessarily should. You know, there are some bad actors out there who abdicate their practice and just have a law clerk manage it, and that's a recipe for disaster. But that delegation piece. 00:29:44 Doug Bourassa Is a challenging. 00:29:45 Doug Bourassa One for everyone in the real estate bar because the financial model presses you to delegate where the negligent obligations require you to focus particularly so. It's very difficult speaking about the types of files. 00:30:05 Doug Bourassa What I have seen? 00:30:08 Doug Bourassa Particularly in 2022, I saw a lot of failed sale. 00:30:15 Doug Bourassa Actions you know as the market was moving, people were buying a property at, you know 1,000,000 bucks. And then when they go to sell theirs, they realize they can only get, you know, 600 instead of the 800 they thought. And they're not going to be able to close. And I saw a lot of that in 2022. 00:30:35 Doug Bourassa I don't see as much of that now from a solicitor negligence point of view. You know the wiring piece that you talked about that's really into. 00:30:44 Doug Bourassa Testing I've seen it in my practice. I'm not going to speak about the specifics because it's still active, but for there is a pressure to transact everything by wire nowadays. Why? Because it's irreversible. It's real money. There's no clearance risk. 00:31:04 Doug Bourassa So vendors love it because they get the money and the money's for real and. 00:31:10 Doug Bourassa They don't have. 00:31:10 Doug Bourassa To ask about it. 00:31:13 Doug Bourassa The problem with wires is while there's no clearance risk, there can be a time delay because you say click, you click your mouse. I would like the wire to go. 00:31:26 Doug Bourassa And then it's out of your hands. 00:31:28 Doug Bourassa And you know, you could try to wrestle with the bank. 00:31:32 Doug Bourassa Has it arrived yet? How about now? 00:31:33 Doug Bourassa How about now? But that's a fool's errand. 00:31:37 Speaker You know. 00:31:38 Doug Bourassa I find. 00:31:40 Doug Bourassa If the parties want a transaction to close. 00:31:45 Doug Bourassa Those issues are never the problem. 00:31:48 Doug Bourassa Right, it's only a problem. 00:31:51 Doug Bourassa When someone's looking to get. 00:31:52 Doug Bourassa Out of the deal. 00:31:53 Doug Bourassa And they're seeking to elect upon an error at the other side to get them out. Scott free. There's almost an element when when someone is in in a real estate transaction, is scrupulously guarding the specifics of their contractual entitled. 00:32:10 Doug Bourassa It sends a very clear message that they are at best indifferent to whether this transaction close or downright hostile, and hoping that you can't close because maybe they want to go back to market and sell it. 00:32:23 Doug Bourassa At a higher. 00:32:24 Doug Bourassa Rate or something like that. 00:32:26 Doug Bourassa So, you know, I think you find out. 00:32:30 Doug Bourassa During a transaction, quite quickly, if someone genuinely wants it to close because there are million solutions that you can put in place for that. 00:32:40 Doug Bourassa That's that's what I. 00:32:40 Avi Charney See, OK and other other indicators in your practice like high interest rates for example, that have brought on a lot of power of sale work is is that? 00:32:54 Avi Charney Is there a correlation there? 00:33:00 Doug Bourassa I mean, yes. 00:33:05 Doug Bourassa I think it's important to pay attention to the actual numbers because. 00:33:13 Doug Bourassa And I trot out this statistic every now and again, the Canadian Bankers Association Association, they maintain statistics about mortgage defaults. 00:33:27 Doug Bourassa Across the various. 00:33:30 Doug Bourassa Provinces in Canada, so every quarter they do a survey and they say here's how many mortgages are outstanding held by the 11 largest institutions in the country on province by province basis. And here's the number that are in default. So the Ontario has roughly 2.2 million. 00:33:51 Doug Bourassa Mortgages outstanding with the biggest 11 borrowers. 00:33:55 Doug Bourassa And the number that are in default. 00:33:59 Doug Bourassa As of January 19th is. 00:34:03 Doug Bourassa 2312. 00:34:05 Avi Charney Wow. Smoke right? 00:34:05 Doug Bourassa Well, it's nothing. It is absolutely nothing. 00:34:12 Doug Bourassa It's barely point 1%, right? 00:34:15 Avi Charney Well, that doesn't account for private lenders, right, which is probably more. 00:34:20 Doug Bourassa True, but private money is not nearly as big a player. There aren't 2.2 million private mortgages out there, and an interesting point to think about. And now we're getting into the nitty gritty of the practice area is the privates are generally interest rate agnostic because they don't often float. 00:34:41 Speaker Right, they're. 00:34:41 Doug Bourassa Often fixed rates so. 00:34:43 Doug Bourassa So I I think it is more common than not in the case of a private mortgage that it has a fixed rate. So the fact that the Bank of Canada is jacked, the rates up a bunch doesn't change. If you could have afford, if you. 00:34:56 Doug Bourassa Could afford the mortgage? 00:34:57 Doug Bourassa Before you can afford it now, because the. 00:34:59 Doug Bourassa Rate hasn't changed. 00:35:00 Avi Charney Where where people are. 00:35:02 Doug Bourassa Getting squeezed on the private side. 00:35:05 Doug Bourassa Is when it comes time for renewal and the renewal terms now bake in the new higher rate? 00:35:15 Doug Bourassa You know, there's obviously going to be some pain in that sector, but. 00:35:21 Doug Bourassa You know, private lending is higher risk to the lenders, higher reward to the lenders, right that's that's part of it. 00:35:30 Avi Charney So I mean, we've gone through so many changes in the last few years, interest rates being one of them. But even before that, the pandemic was. 00:35:40 Avi Charney A big factor in our lives, you know, we all started working remotely. How did the pandemic affect you and your practice? 00:35:48 Doug Bourassa Well, I'm glad you asked. 00:35:51 Doug Bourassa The pandemic was not kind to me. 00:35:57 Doug Bourassa So I joined my current firm in March of 2021 and that was just around the time that the vaccines were coming out. 00:36:09 Doug Bourassa And I was very eager to get vaccinated. 00:36:12 Doug Bourassa And I thought that was important. I still do. 00:36:20 Doug Bourassa Around late April, I got vaccinated and I was one of of very, very, very small group of people. 00:36:31 Doug Bourassa Who had a serious adverse reaction called Guillain Barre syndrome. 00:36:37 Doug Bourassa And I ended up hospitalized for about 3-3 and a bit months, and I was largely paralyzed with no feeling in my arms and legs, 2021. 00:36:49 Avi Charney Sorry to hear that. 00:36:55 Doug Bourassa There's I I think at last count, like 30 people in the country had some flavor of this. I have 100 million shots that those are good odds. You know, I'd take. 00:37:03 Doug Bourassa Those odds? 00:37:04 Doug Bourassa Any from the pandemic? 00:37:11 Doug Bourassa Nearly cost me my practice. 00:37:16 Doug Bourassa I was very fortunate that my new colleagues, who I hadn't met in person because I just joined, were incredibly supportive and they sort of managed my practice while I was unable. 00:37:33 Doug Bourassa And you know that. 00:37:40 Doug Bourassa Give me red and newfound appreciation for. 00:37:43 Doug Bourassa The fact that I get to do this. 00:37:47 Doug Bourassa It is such a privilege to get to play in the sandbox. It is such a joy to get to go to court, to have someone trust you with their big problem, to be in a position to do. 00:38:02 Doug Bourassa That for people. 00:38:05 Doug Bourassa You know, just because you've done it before, it doesn't mean you'll always be able to do it. 00:38:09 Doug Bourassa And that's what this pandemic taught me, that this thing we get to do. 00:38:19 Doug Bourassa It's special. 00:38:23 Doug Bourassa And we're incredibly fortunate that we get to do it and I don't think I have the same appreciation for it before I had this illness. 00:38:36 Doug Bourassa That I had afterwards and I want to sort of round off the story. So to this day, you know, I have mobility issues and what have you. 00:38:47 Doug Bourassa I'm not in wheelchair anymore, so that's great, but I walk with a pronounced limp and you know, that's probably how it's going to be. 00:38:54 Doug Bourassa But that's OK. 00:38:57 Doug Bourassa I was fortunate. 00:38:58 Doug Bourassa That one of my cases was in the Supreme Court of Canada last December. So a little over a month ago. 00:39:09 Doug Bourassa For people who practice in the area that I practice, the Supreme Court is a mirage in the distance that you will never reach. Mm-hmm. 00:39:18 Doug Bourassa Because commercial cases don't get there that often, not not a constitutional lawyer, I'm not a criminal law lawyer. Those are the guys that go all the time, not commercial lawyers. And one of my cases went all the way up the chain and. 00:39:34 Doug Bourassa Standing there at that podium in that forum and my wife and my daughters came up and. 00:39:44 Doug Bourassa My girls were. 00:39:45 Doug Bourassa Proud of me. 00:39:47 Doug Bourassa And to stand there and think of how far I had come and how fortunate I was to get to do this made such an impact on. 00:39:59 Doug Bourassa Getting to go to the big show, it's every. 00:40:01 Doug Bourassa Lawyer's dream. And it was. 00:40:03 Doug Bourassa Everything I could have hoped. 00:40:04 Doug Bourassa For I wish I could have had longer to. 00:40:05 Doug Bourassa Speak. But you know what are. 00:40:07 Doug Bourassa You going to do? I got to speak. I got to perform in the big leagues. It was a special moment in so many ways. 00:40:18 Doug Bourassa He was a pinnacle of my professional career. 00:40:22 Doug Bourassa And you know, it was a real summit, sort of on my recovery from this. 00:40:31 Doug Bourassa The last thing I want to say about this, because I suspect this is not how you expected that answer that. 00:40:37 Avi Charney You know, but I'm happy we went that way. I mean, that's inspirational. 00:40:43 Doug Bourassa The last thing that I'll say about it. 00:40:45 Doug Bourassa It's funny having an illness with the political dimension because a lot of strangers have a lot of strong feelings about. 00:40:55 Doug Bourassa You know, vaccines and what have you. The only thing that I'll say about it is uh. 00:41:02 Doug Bourassa I remain strongly in favor of them, and now that I cannot get vaccinated and my health has been compromised, I'm all the more reliant on other people to do it to keep me safe. So I took one for the team and I'll step up everybody. 00:41:22 Doug Bourassa That's my public service announcement for you. 00:41:25 Avi Charney Like like I said, really inspiring to hear your gratitude and appreciation for life and the and the work you do and. 00:41:32 Avi Charney I think that's what it's about ultimately. I mean, just loving, loving what you do and and going to work every day with a smile on your face. You just reminded me on the whole vaccine. Note that running, I think of COVID when I interviewed Judge judgy and and Bernie, I asked him about that. And he was also strong. And he said, Yep, everyone's got a direct, you know, if if. 00:41:54 Avi Charney If one it's like, I think, he said. 00:41:57 Avi Charney Opening up the. 00:41:58 Avi Charney Plane or something like that. Wearing a seat belt. You know you have to. You have to do it. It's a public service announcement. 00:42:04 Avi Charney Like you said so. 00:42:06 Avi Charney Full full circle over there. I mean that that appreciation and gratitude is contagious. You you inspired me to really appreciate what we. 00:42:15 Avi Charney Do every day. 00:42:17 Avi Charney On that note, is there any book recommendation that a book that's inspired you that you can maybe suggest to other people? 00:42:25 Avi Charney Find such a beautiful perspective. 00:42:30 Doug Bourassa I'm not going to mention a book. I'm going to mention something far nerdier and sadder. 00:42:39 Doug Bourassa For many years now. 00:42:41 Doug Bourassa I have had an. 00:42:43 Doug Bourassa RSS feed on the Canley website that sends every new Ontario Superior Court of Justice case to my desktop. 00:42:53 Doug Bourassa As they are. 00:42:54 Doug Bourassa Published and what do I read? What? 00:42:57 Doug Bourassa Do I find? 00:43:00 Doug Bourassa Give me case law. They are short stories. Every single one of them. They are dramas with players, with schemes and dreams and hopes. And you. 00:43:12 Doug Bourassa Know for me? 00:43:13 Doug Bourassa If I think. 00:43:13 Doug Bourassa Of cases as stories that come alive and. 00:43:18 Doug Bourassa You know, when I when? 00:43:19 Doug Bourassa I give a speech when I'm trying to explain a legal principle. 00:43:26 Doug Bourassa If I start with the principle, everyone's eyes glaze over and it's no fun. If I start with a story, people can grab hold to it and people can get really interested in it. And if I think about cases as stories, they come alive for me. I'm going to give you a really quick example. 00:43:45 Doug Bourassa This is one of my favorite cases of all time because it's so absurd, so bear with me as we go down the annals. 00:43:50 Doug Bourassa Of case law. 00:43:52 Doug Bourassa Paul Royal Bank of Canada versus kiss. 00:43:56 Doug Bourassa And this was a guarantee enforcement case. So the Royal Bank of Canada had loaned some money to this guy who was running I. 00:44:03 Doug Bourassa Think a Barber shop or something. 00:44:06 Doug Bourassa And then the loan wasn't going so. 00:44:07 Doug Bourassa Good. So they said, you know what? 00:44:11 Doug Bourassa If you get your young brother to sign the guarantee of the debt we'll forebear and we. 00:44:16 Doug Bourassa Won't call the loan. 00:44:18 Doug Bourassa And like this brother had just turned 18 and stupidly, he said Yep, I'll sign it. He signs the guarantee. Well, about three or four months later, Royal Bank says, yeah, you're still stiffen us. So we called the loan the the young brother, hot headed and tempestuous though he may be, goes rushing to the Royal Bank branch. 00:44:39 Doug Bourassa And demands to see the guarantee that he signed bank manager duly presents it to him. What does the young brother do? He rips off the signature line and devours it in front of the bank manager. 00:44:54 Doug Bourassa He puts it his mouth, he. 00:44:55 Doug Bourassa Chews it. He eats it up. 00:44:57 Doug Bourassa And he says. 00:44:59 Doug Bourassa No guarantee. Aha. 00:45:03 Doug Bourassa And this was in the 60s. So what did the bank manager do? He called the cops and they came. I I don't think they would come now but. And So what happened next? They take the young brother. 00:45:17 Doug Bourassa Into a small room. 00:45:19 Doug Bourassa And a police officer, an armed officer, stands over him and requires him to sign a new guarantee. Well. 00:45:29 Doug Bourassa The more the moral. 00:45:31 Doug Bourassa Of that story is the following. 00:45:34 Doug Bourassa A guarantee signed at gunpoint is not enforceable, thank goodness the Court of Appeal told us and #2. The more interesting one. 00:45:44 Doug Bourassa That signature line. 00:45:47 Doug Bourassa That's not what you're suing on. You're not suing on this piece of paper. You're suing on the promise and the piece of paper is evidence of that promise. The fact that he chewed it up doesn't mean that he didn't make that promise right. It has nothing to do with whether he. 00:46:02 Doug Bourassa Made that promise. 00:46:03 Doug Bourassa And if I just started by telling you a story about the laws of the evidence. 00:46:10 Doug Bourassa It would be dry as hell, but I got you dripping off every word because I'm talking about this weird old kid who's chewing up a guarantee and signing one at gunpoint. 00:46:20 Doug Bourassa If you think. 00:46:20 Doug Bourassa Of them as stories. They come alive and doing. The moral of the story is what law school calls the ratio decidendi, right? 00:46:30 Doug Bourassa That's all it is. They're fables. They're passion plays. 00:46:34 Doug Bourassa And I'll, I'll just wrap up this. 00:46:37 Doug Bourassa Soliloquy with a quick comment that. 00:46:40 Doug Bourassa A mediator once told me. 00:46:41 Doug Bourassa That I thought just rings so true. 00:46:46 Doug Bourassa You know, my client was in the middle of this mediation and you know, we were just about there on the number. And my guy said, but I need them to admit they were wrong. 00:46:56 Doug Bourassa That's my big problem. 00:46:58 Doug Bourassa Then the mediator looked around and he said you see all these law books behind me. It was one of those law libraries where he's got, you know, dozens and dozens of books. 00:47:07 Doug Bourassa He says in every one of those case books, there's a couple dozen cases. There's hundreds of the books. There's thousands of cases behind me. 00:47:16 Doug Bourassa In every one of those cases. 00:47:18 Doug Bourassa Except exactly half of the people think the judge got it wrong. No one ever at the end of this says you know what? You're right. 00:47:30 Doug Bourassa I'm a total liar and a fool. 00:47:33 Doug Bourassa Vindication is not on offer here. Only a check. So do you like the check? Then leave the vindication. I use that story with my clients all the time because it's so true. That's not what's on offer here. All we're doing here is talking about who pays who, what when. That's what litigation is. 00:47:54 Doug Bourassa You know, the higher my wheels. 00:47:55 Avi Charney Hi, sis. 00:47:58 Doug Bourassa We we just don't see it all that often, yeah. 00:48:00 Avi Charney I mean, if only people would leave out the emotion and and look at it like that would make probably your job a lot easier because there's there's usually all that emotional. 00:48:10 Avi Charney Tension that's brought to the table. Uh, you know, maybe less than commercial real estate, but I know in the states world that's almost the same reason that people go to litigation. 00:48:21 Doug Bourassa That's the reason people start litigation. That's not the. 00:48:25 Doug Bourassa Reason they end it. 00:48:29 Doug Bourassa Because what? What we often see is. 00:48:33 Doug Bourassa Those passions fade over time, and as legal bills increase, right? What was a stalwart statement of absolute principle? Often founders in the Crucible of legal fees and delay. 00:48:48 Doug Bourassa And that's actually by design. Our system is designed that way. That's that's a feature. It's not a bug, right? The whole way that our system is set up is to bring people to settlements and conclusions. Right. And we have this cost. 00:49:07 Doug Bourassa Regime in Ontario that shifts burdens and losses between parties with one objective. 00:49:15 Doug Bourassa To increase the risks as you approach trial to discourage people from going to trial, that's the that's the goal. Now. It's really fun for us lawyers to do trials. It's really fun for us to get judgements. But to those young lawyers out there, let me remind you, your clients. 00:49:36 Doug Bourassa Don't pay you to win cases. 00:49:39 Doug Bourassa You might think they do. 00:49:42 Doug Bourassa But they don't. 00:49:43 Doug Bourassa They pay you so that you give them a check from the other side if you're a plaintiff, or they pay you to not have to write a check to the other side. If you are defendant, that's the only thing that matters. I could line the walls of my office with judgments that have been entirely. 00:50:03 Doug Bourassa Uncollectible do you think those clients believe they accomplished their goal, acquiring an expensive piece of paper? I think not. 00:50:13 Doug Bourassa If I'm not putting money in my plaintive clients pocket. 00:50:18 Doug Bourassa In a commercial real estate deal and and commercial litigation matter, I'm not actually accomplishing virtual, I'm accomplishing mine. 00:50:28 Avi Charney So I feel like I can sit and listen to you for hours and and speak to you for hours and and go into all sorts of different topics, but time is somewhat running out, so I want to give you a last word, a general advice to the young lawyers among us. What what kind of advice do you do you suggest for young lawyers and specifically for real estate? 00:50:52 Doug Bourassa I'm going to speak. 00:50:52 Doug Bourassa About litigation first and then I'll talk about real estate. 00:50:58 Doug Bourassa One thing that I didn't talk about enough when you asked me a question about mentorship and experience. I said you learn by doing and that's very much true. 00:51:09 Doug Bourassa But one thing that I think is really difficult for young lawyers today because of the pandemic and the change to virtual court hearings is this. I learned so much. 00:51:25 Doug Bourassa Sitting on a court bench waiting for my motion to be heard, having to watch some other motion, I knew nothing about waiting. My turn was an incredible way to learn. Why was it incredible? Because I got to see other lawyers styles. I got to see. 00:51:44 Doug Bourassa Older lawyers, good attributes, negative attributes and especially when you're young, I I couldn't tell why the good lawyers everything seems so easy, but I sure as heck could tell why the bad lawyers mucked it up so bad. So I got to watch lots of that while I was waiting my turn to speak. 00:52:03 Doug Bourassa And another great thing about watching emotion. You don't know anything about. 00:52:09 Doug Bourassa You're you might be in the same position. 00:52:11 Doug Bourassa As the judge. 00:52:13 Doug Bourassa Right. You're coming to it fresh. You don't have background. You haven't lived and breathed with this case for months like you have. If you're one of the litigants or one of the lawyers, you're coming to it cold. So. 00:52:25 Doug Bourassa You learn, really. 00:52:26 Doug Bourassa Quickly, when you're watching emotion that you don't know anything about, how much gets skipped over. 00:52:33 Doug Bourassa And assumed. 00:52:35 Doug Bourassa And how damaging that can be to someone who's hearing it for the first time so. 00:52:41 Doug Bourassa For those young lawyers who are interested in litigation. 00:52:45 Doug Bourassa Nowadays, a lot of motions are done by zoom. 00:52:49 Doug Bourassa And that kind of takes away my favorite part of the gig, but so be it. That's the future, this old man yells at clouds. But other than that, it's the way the future is going to be and. 00:52:58 Doug Bourassa I'm good with. 00:52:59 Doug Bourassa It but to young lawyers. If you show up for a motion. 00:53:04 Doug Bourassa And you're going to be heard later. Take the opportunity to watch the other one. You will learn so much just by osmosis at first. You might not learn what to do. That will be good, but you will sure as hell learn what not to do. And even if you get nothing more than cautionary tales. 00:53:25 Doug Bourassa You will be a better lawyer for becoming a persuasive advocate is about learning what style of persuasion, formality, and specificity works with you. 00:53:38 Doug Bourassa And the way I do it is not the way another lawyer does it. I had to come into my own and learn what would make me compelling with my way of looking at the world with my way of communicating. And you can't just wear someone else's shoes and expect that they're going to fit. You're going to have to try on a bunch and. 00:53:58 Doug Bourassa Figure out which ones fit for you and the way you do that is you go to the shoe store and you look at a whole bunch of shoes. 00:54:08 Doug Bourassa That's my rant about learning to be a good litigator. Now for real estate law. 00:54:14 Doug Bourassa One of the most important things is the phone. 00:54:19 Doug Bourassa And nothing lawyers tend to be afraid of the phone. I know I was. What do I mean by that? We all get worried. What if I say the wrong thing? What if I do this? At least in in an e-mail? I can write exactly what I mean to say. And there's comfort in that. But that misses. 00:54:40 Doug Bourassa The relationship point and. 00:54:44 Doug Bourassa I have many times had to step in and tell them associates stop emailing, pick up the phone, call the. 00:54:54 Doug Bourassa Because e-mail communication. 00:54:57 Doug Bourassa You can mess up the tone. It can take forever. People get all twisted about something you didn't mean, and they have a question and you don't get to answer it. 00:55:08 Doug Bourassa Those relationship, it is so much harder to be an asset to someone when you're talking to them. 00:55:16 Doug Bourassa When you're emailing, it is easier, and if you are being a jerk to someone even accidentally, it makes accomplishing your goal harder. So don't be afraid of the phone. The other thing I would say is get out personally to all those CPD's that you can. 00:55:36 Doug Bourassa Because that's how you become. 00:55:39 Doug Bourassa Notorious in a good way in your area of the bar you get. 00:55:44 Doug Bourassa Recognized and known. Hey, didn't I see you at that one last month? Yeah. Good to see you again. That stuff matters. It matters. 00:55:53 Doug Bourassa Because if you have a. 00:55:54 Doug Bourassa Problem on a file. 00:55:57 Doug Bourassa And you've met. 00:55:57 Doug Bourassa That person before. It's so much easier to deal with it right on a transactional basis. 00:56:05 Speaker You have an. 00:56:06 Doug Bourassa Endpoint and that's completion of the deal. So you should be doing things that put you in the best position to work together with the other side to complete that deal. 00:56:17 Doug Bourassa And you know, it's trite. 00:56:20 Doug Bourassa But you catch a hell. 00:56:21 Doug Bourassa Of a lot more flies with honey. 00:56:24 Doug Bourassa Right and. 00:56:28 Doug Bourassa It behooves you. 00:56:30 Doug Bourassa To become a member of the bar and a member of the Community, because you'll learn how people manage difficult situations and you'll have a network of mentors to rely on when something comes up that you don't know about. 00:56:45 Doug Bourassa And having that network is absolutely invaluable. No one expects that any of us knows all the law. There's too. 00:56:53 Doug Bourassa Much of it. 00:56:55 Doug Bourassa But our job is to know when we don't know something and to know how to find the answer. 00:57:02 Doug Bourassa So get out to CPD. 00:57:03 Avi Charney 'S tag we're we're so lucky to have you in the real estate bar in Ontario and as CPD contributor. 00:57:10 Avi Charney Keep it up. 00:57:12 Avi Charney You know, I look forward to speaking to you again. 00:57:14 Avi Charney I'm sure we can have a a Part 2 and go into all sorts of different directions, but for now I really thank you for your time and your insights and frankly your inspiration. It's been inspiring to meet someone who will loves what they do and it's it's contagious. So thank you and. 00:57:32 Avi Charney For this and you're around. 00:57:34 Doug Bourassa More often. 00:57:35 Doug Bourassa Thank you very much for having me. It's great to get to participate in this. Thanks, Avi. 00:57:40 Avi Charney God bless you for now, Doug. 00:57:42 Avi Charney Be healthy and well.